"I’Äôll batch the questions and reply twice daily."

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Well, I guess this is a bit of a long question but still one question.

It is made clear that when weighing applicants there are obviously subjective and objective areas of an application. Grades, standardized test scores, etc...could all be considered fairly objective parts of an application. Things such as the interview, essays, and "Match" are more subjective. How does MIT weigh these two areas in an application? Obviously if there are people with wonderful objective areas of their application, and then people with wonderful objective areas and a great interview, wonderful essays, and a strong sense of match the second would be more likely to be admitted. Again, this could fluctuate on a case by case basis I am sure (for example someone home schooled might want better SAT scores to give MIT some way to compare then on a national standard). However in general what is the weight placed on these two broad subdivisions of an application?

Thanks in advance,

My two questions are...
um...
If you would describe MIT as a color, what would it be and why?

and...um...
If you could generalize admission officers as an animal, what would it be?

J/K! THANK YOU SOO MUCH FOR THE HELP!!! I OWE U A TANK OF GAS. LOL

Hmmm....
Which counts more - Essay or Standardized test scores?

Oh, I know it's "considered," but to what general extent?

Essays 500 words only, right? Any longer and the website cuts it off?

Thank you very much Mr. Bryan Nance.

I'm an MIT otaku

Mr. Nance,
At an MIT info session Ben indirectly said that "everyone at MIT was #1 in their class". He didn't mean literally but nonetheless, how many really are #1? Does that affect the application THAT much? Thanks...

Nancester:

1) I know MIT is very big on geographical diversity, but is this applied to limit the number of incoming students from a school? I've been helping people apply to MIT under the proviso that it wasn't (knowing some schools such as Stuyvesant have been known to send ~20+ students), but I'm wondering if I'm just hurting myself with the pool growing more and more competitive each year?

2) What do you do if your work experience doesn't fit in the area MIT's app has for it?

- Timur

Are learning disabilities at all considered in the application process, and if so, in a positive and negative manner? Where would one report it?

@Dan: My EC told me that of ranked applicants (which make up 58% of MIT) accepted, 62% were valedictorians. So we know for sure that at least 36% of students accepted were at the top of their class.

Don't let a statistic get to you, though.

Robb,

Good question. Allow me to give a few rules that [I believe] many admission committees live by:

First, subjective information is a great lens for us to view objective information. Both sets of information are complementary and often very intertwined. Instead of dividing each application into subjective and objective, (two parts) we think of applicant much as a four legged table.

The four legs (roughly) consist of:
1. Grades & what those grades mean;
2. Fit and Match for the Institute and/or desired field of study;
3. Standardized exams e.g. SAT’Äôs, ACT’Äôs, SAT II’Äôs etc.
4. Letters of recommendations, Extra-curricular activities, research, etc.

(THIS CAN GET COMPLICATED REAL FAST SO KEEP UP)

Although one might think of grades as objective, there can often be subjective information that affects how we look at that material. For example, if a school offers AP Calculus BC but the applicant did not take the class objectively, this is not good for the applicant. One might even say that by not taking BC Calc the applicant is not working to potential. That is an objective response. But, what if the student did not take the class because of an unavoidable schedule conflict that is confirmed by the Guidance Counselor. Should this be held against the applicant? This is a good example of the use of subjective and objective information simultaneously.

Back to the table analogy listed above. We will look at each applicant as a table. If three of the legs are strong and one is weaker, that table will still stand. If two or three of the legs are weak, we know that the table will have difficulty standing. As we look at each leg it is imperative that we consider all available information, objective and subjective.

I hope that this helps!

-THE NANCE EFFECT

YeSeul,

MIT is definately a Technicolor Deamcoat named ROY G BIV or a Plataus named Ted.

Laura,

See the post to Robb. You are asking me to choose between two very important legs of the table. Although 500 words don't seem like a lot, it's what you do with those words. Remember, it is the only place in this whole process that you get to speak to us. It is the only time that you get to tell us your passions any why you a great fit and match for MIT.

It really is what you do with your platform.
The Gettysburg Address: 278 words.
The US Constitution Preamble: 52 words.

Dan,

We know that not everyone is number one in his or her class because we know that not all schools rank. We do get our share of number 1’Äôs in class. If being number 1 in class is all you got, don’Äôt be surprised if you get refused. Again, that’Äôs just one leg of the table.

Ninja Timur,

Geographic diversity is important to ensure that 70% of the incoming class is not from Kent County, Delaware. (I know you already knew that).
No matter how big the pool gets, we will continue to look for great students with four sturdy legs. Think about the admissions process the same way that Tiger Woods approaches The Masters: As long as he brings his A game, it does not matter what the others do. Remember, you are competing only against yourself. We will look at you as an individual...you must do the same.

If your info won't fit simply type: See attached sheet... & attach an additional sheet.

Dan,

I just saw what Timur wrote. Als remember that not all Valedictorians are number 1 in class. There is a famous saying, "Numbers are lies and Statistics are damn lies".

Anonymous,

Great quiestion about disabilities! Again, I'll refer you to the Robb response. This is subjective information that can be helpful in the review of objective material. It is neither negative or positive; it simply is.

If you have documented information from a doctor or some other professional, you should submit it as additional information. By law (The Americans with Disabilities Act) we are required to suport your needs as an admitted student. We can only effectly do that if we know in advance what those needs may be.

I guess what I'm saying is to error on the side of full disclosure. I am glad to chat with you about specifics off line. Feel free to drop me an email at bgnance@mit.edu.

For the short response question that asks about "non-required" activities, what type of activity are you looking for? I do a lot of things that are not required but are semi school related [clubs, volunteering, tutoring...], are those fair game? Or is it more hobby-ish, like that I enjoy watching 1920s film noir?

There are three question marks but I'm pretending like it's all one big question.

Thanks!

"Don't let a statistic get to you, though."

Exactly. I stopped believing in chance, luck, and statistics a long time ago... but that's a story reserved for my essay. :).

Nancer,

I heard from one of the ECs here that during the admission process, after reviewing the applications, the adcom will 'force rank' the applicant on two scales - the 'subjective' (x-axis) and 'objective' (y-axis), with the right-hand side of the x-axis and the top part of the y-axis being a better ranking. He also mentioned that the farther your application is to the top-right of the graph, the higher chance you have of being admitted. Following that, a box is drawn, and then ~1400 applicants that are within the box are admitted. Is this true?

Also, I heard that to create diversity, if two students have the same position in the graph, one of them will be struck off. Is this true as well?

I've thought about it for quite a while... and yeah, it's kinda got me thinking about it ever since I got to know about this, for it sounds like an awkward way to admit students.

Dan, so sorry for any misunderstanding - I didn't mean to imply anything of the sort. Indeed, most of our admits are towards the top of their classes, but frequently not #1.

Eric,

Is your post based on Game Therory, for which Robert J. Aumann was the co-recipient of the 2005 Nobel Prize in Economics? (Anytime I can work a Nobel Laureate into the conversation, it's a great day!)

Honestly, this process is as much of a SCIENCE as Economics. In other words, We are going to review objective information through a subjective lens.

For example, we know that the world market is not supportive of Soviet-Era communist economic models. Objectively, we also know that the best thing to do is to create a new economic policy that is based on a free market ecomomic system.

Subjectively, we know that an overnight move from Communism to Free market would cause tremendious suffering.
So if you wanted to move to a free market system (we hope) that you'd find the most humane way to accomplish this. Once you get into the nuts and bolts of the process, if you are looking at each decision individually, you are bound to have some inconsistancies.

Yes, we will use some statistical processes to manage the pool and the big picture. (It is not good when we over-enroll) but it will not drive individual admissions process.

I'm sure that it is now clear as mud! If you have additional questions, feel fre to drop me an email off line.

Thanks a bunch

Hi! Thank you so much for doing this :D

How are widespread (as opposed to concentrated and focused) interests [passions] looked upon?

My question is the following. I took the TOEFL exam on August and I send my scores on August. Im planning to apply for early action, do I need to send my scores now becuase you received my scores a long time ago?

YJ,

I've seen MIT appropiate students with interests in Engineering & Engineering vs interests in Physics and Music Composition. We know that at 17 or 18 years old that you are still figuring it all out. The key is to tell us what you want to study, not what you want to be.

Jose,

You don't need to re-send the scores. We'll have them.

Thanks a lot Mr. Nance, everything you've told me, I actually already knew before - you explained the concept quite extensively at the information session - but I'm so paranoid that I must work out every little detail.

xie xie

Laura,

Breath easy....you're in th zone!

What do you feel about this article and is MIT simliar in the way college applicants are viewed.

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/articles/051010crat_atlarge

Just a quick, slightly off topic question. Did you recieve the e-mail I sent while you were travelling? (rcarr@wired-designs.net) my mail server was having issues when I sent it so I thought it would be good to ask.

Annie,

I'm reading the article you referenced a bit at a time. I'll let you know tomorrow what I think.

P.S. I love your blog!

Robb, I don't have record of any emails from you other than Blog posts. Please re-send any quests that you may have for me.

Bryan

I took the MIT tour over spring break last year and I remember the tour guides showing us the engraving in the ceiling of the Rogers Building off of Massachusetts Ave. I was just wondering what that script was because I could not remember. Thanks a lot.

On a side note I attended one of your information sessions in Alexandria, Virginia and it was very informative.

Nancer,

Actually, I didn't get it from the game theory... but I think that's another interesting thing for me to look up. =)

So is there really such a practice within schools to force-rank the applications? Or do you guys continually review the "admit" pile until you have ~1500 or so applications in it?

For the additional information section, may we put a URL to an online portfolio of ours, or should supplementary material such as this be sent through traditional snail mail?

Thank you for doing this, it really is a help to everyone!

Annie,

That's quite an article you posted; just managed to finish reading it.

It seems that the definitions of "best graduates" has evolved and morphed over time, and varies from school to school. Bryan, what's the definition of a "good graduate" in MIT's terms? Do you guys use "good graduates" as an implicit criteria for admission?

Oh yeah, I also saw another thing that got me totally crapped out. There's this company that totally disgusted me - it charges you $10,000 or so to have a professional get you admitted into a top American university, by means of reviewing the activities that you *should* do, the things that you *should* write; essentially the things that would get you into HYPSM etc. Essentially, they're profiting out of the admissions process, something that I feel is morally reprehensible, because it turns the admissions process into a commodity for the financial elite (just look at the cost!), rather than a process to find *the match* for the school. Fortunately, they help only ~20 students each year, so that isn't many, but they also boast a 100% admittance rate for these students. Hence, it's still giving them an unfair advantage in the admissions process.

Yeah, well, that's something I just wanted to bring out.

Cheers =)

Eric: These high=priced private counselors are nothing new. Heck, I know an MIT alum who plans on going into that career. But when you get a projected profit of $300,000 just for helping people work the admissions game, you can see why it's so appealing.

I don't like it any more than you do. People who are having their personalities engineered are taking up slots that other students truly deserve. It's a lot like what Ben said, they're feeding the machine.

I have a very strong biology preparation from my high school (4 years' worth of courses). Is there any way I could place out of freshman biology? I know that an AP score of 5 doesn't matter for AP Bio, because they teach different things. Is there an exam I could take to skip freshman biology and start taking more advanced classes immediately?

Second Question: I e-mailed MIT admissions about SAT I policy, and their response focused on the math and the reading sections. Will the SAT I Writing section score be evaluated?

Thank you

Zack,

http://web.mit.edu/firstyear/2009/subjects/index.html

That URL should be able to help answer your question. Essentially, when I browsed through it, there's nothing there that allows you to place out biology. I think that's because the biology course at MIT is just simply too tough. I only know that an A level/IB/Advanced Placement score of A/7/5, you can gain 12 units of credit.

http://web.mit.edu/firstyear/2009/subjects/ap.html

This URL might be more helpful than the one I gave above, in answering about the AP questions.

Cheers!

There are advanced standing exams (ASEs) at MIT that allow you to place out of classes or place into advanced courses, however, the website describing the exams seems to be down at the moment.

You will be given the opportunity to take the ASEs in whatever classes you wish during freshmen orientation should you get accepted into MIT.

Ack, that was me. :D

My question is the following. Who does the interview? Because I contacted my EC that appears on MYMIT and then he told me that he was going to contact another EC so he could interview me.

Jose, if you've got problems with the interview, you can contact interview@mit.edu, who will help you out with the situation once you explain it clearly to them.

I guess if your EC is going to change to another person, then it should be fine. After all, EC assignments change from time to time. (A local EC here who conducted an information session in my school said that if we had problems contacting our own assigned interviewer, we could contact him.)

Tony,

When I'm back on camus I'll remember to look up and tell you what is engraved overhead of Building 7

Zach,

I had a long meandering answer to your question and I see that Eric answered...(maybe better that I could have!)

NANCESTER:
Sorry for commenting twice, but I have a question of crucial importance.

I was informed by my friend '10 that if you take a certain series of phys ed classes (sailing, rowing, pistol, fencing, and ropes), you qualify for the hidden Pirate degree.

My question then is only natural, if MIT gives out pirate degrees, why is there not a ninja degree? Or have the qualifications for the ninja degree simply not (yet) been discovered?

I... I think I have a new mission should I get into MIT.

Timur, where in the world did you get that info man?

(I am going to assume that Timur is joking considering this would be like the THIRD hint hes made at his ninja obsession)
Timur: For the hidden ninja degree you go into the great dome and press Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_ninja_degree (The fact that said article was created within a few minutes of this post has NO relevance)

Hey Matt,
Here are my two questions...
1. I took the Math Level 1 SAT II a while back and got a 780. Then, June of last year, I took the SAT and got a not-so-great score. This year, I retook the SAT in October, but I'm not too confident about my verbal score. Im applying Early Action and only have the November testing date to take another test..is it better for me to take the Math Level 2 exam or the SAT?..hope that wasn't too confusing
2. In 10th grade, I audited European history because it couldn't fit in my schedule. I would sit in the class every other day or so, but didnt have it in my schedule, didnt really do all the work for it, and dont have a grade for it. I did, however sit for the AP Exam and got a 4. I'm doing the same sort of thing this year with AP Biology, where I sit in the class for the first half of the period every other day. How do I write this on my self-reported course history?

Thanks a lot! Hope my questions arent too long :-/

Oh! Ooops..my last question was not to Matt it was to THE NANCE EFFECT!

Mr. Nance Effector,

I am considering submitting "additional [...] material" (such as a research paper and a digital portfolio of art works) for the second "completely optional" option. I will be providing a short description of the additional material in my online application and will send the real material by mail. I actually talk about one of the two in my creation essay ("completely optional" # 1) but was thinking it would be nice to let the admissions folks see at least part of my real work. Is it okay to make such a submission for the 2nd "c.o." option or is it generally discouraged?

Thanks!!!

Hehe, of course I'm kidding, but it's still fun to ask. I got the information from my friend who is currently a freshmen ('09, oops). It's one of those fun things to pass around.

However, I am a member of multiple Wikipedia committees, and I must say creating junk articles is frowned upon. :(. Please, keep Wikipedia clean!

Do you review applications as they are submitted or do you wait until after the deadline and read all the applications then?

I definetly agree in general, however I did not think there was much harm in an article that obviously is not going to recieve much traffic. Interestingly enough I have actually become fairly involved in editing on wikipedia recently its alot of fun and slightly addictive (reading through it that is)...im actually putting together some material to go through a bunch of mathematical articles as we speak...however considering how much sleep I got sunday the odds of it being finished tonight...are low.

@Anon: I remember last year, the person who did our central meeting told us specifically you can send in your application whenever you want, but they don't read it until all of them are in.

@Robb: I'm glad to see you've become involved with Wikipedia, I myself have added/editted 100+ pages, and only God knows how much organizing I've done on the committees. I recommend you also check out WikiBooks and see what you can contribute there! The wiki math book could use some help.

I will definetly go look over WikiBooks...I had browsed it a bit before...not really extensively though! right now I was working on fixing a bunch of things where elementary proofs are referenced...but not given. However the fact that I must first prove said thing...proof read, translate it into LaTeX etc makes it a bit of an effort. Will have to look alot more at WikiBooks...me and a friend actually had an intresting idea for a project/research idea involving WikiBooks, however the plan was to contact admins first as its a bit...unusual, on second thought WikiSource is probally more appropriate.

WikiBooks, Wikipedia, and Wikisource are all owned by Wikimedia. If you need any help with any aspect of setting up the page, let me know.

I do believe all the basic mathematical proofs were moved to one page. I don't like it, but I'm only responsible for the organization of the physics section, so I just let Math do their thing. I've voiced my disconcern, but I think it fell on deaf ears.

I will have to look for that...some of the proofs are actually of intermediate level material or fairly complex material...but the proofs themselves are rather simple/short so I felt that in the article would be a good place. Thanks for the offer of help :) I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on the editing system...I set up a blank wiki on my own site to play around with (I could have just used the sandbox, but I was also curious as to the internals). I do however have a question, what would be your advice on becoming more involved in the community? Becoming involved in decisions, etc...

I am an undergraduate applicant from india . i have a huge question to ask you.
i took my SAT II recently(oct) and i think i will get an 'ideal' MIT score. however, my name as in the collegeboard.com system is palleti.r.datta, whereas my name in the MIT online application is Raghavendra Datta palleti. (it's actually a change in the order of the name, this is quite common in 'indian english',people tend to mix up first names with last names) however I am confused. considering th thousands of applications you guys deal with, is there a chance of losing my score, or will it be assigned to my name? this name mix up is killing me.
PS: My My MIT username is RAGHAVENDRA, and my DOB is 13 july 1989, just in case you can help me with it.

Haha, raghavendra, I don't think there's an 'ideal' MIT score for the SAT IIs... after all, they review your application holistically, isn't it?

Re: changing EC assignments

Don't stress it. EC assignments have to change from time to time for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the candidates.

For example, I'm an EC and we were expecting a baby last November (2004). As a result, all of the interviewees assigned to me in November got reassigned to another EC, as I could never guarantee that I would be able to make an interview appointment, and I had a number of applicants who had to travel to the interview. I did do some interviewing in October, but then I had to swap away all of my assignees. Something as simple as an urgent business trip may require an EC swap. It should not matter at all to the application. I know most of the other EC's in my local region, and they are all good.

Hope that helps,
-Mikalye

I'm homeschooled and I haven't had a chance to take some of the courses others have. How much will this effect my application?

As a homeschooler are my SAT scores more important?
April

Hi april! just make note that you have had not had the chance to take some of the courses others have if it does not appear elsewhere in your application and your application will be evaluated in its own context. Again you are compared to yourself, not others. When I spoke to Mr. Nance in Arlington (I am a homeschooler myself) he said I should definetly try and do very well on the SAT as anything they can use to compare me on a national standard would make them feel more comfortable about their decision.

@Robb: Well, just keep writing more articles. To be honest, pretend you're a sysop (you're supposed to). The more you write and edit, the more people will be able to value your work. This is why I recommend NOT changing your username (admittedly, I did, but eh, it's okay). With experience, you (generally) gain more authority. Join the WikiProject: Mathematics group and help them out (although I wouldn't be surprised if you're already on it.

And you're in Arlington? Now, is that Arlington, TX? I'm right over in south Plano. We should meet up sometime. :)

Though that would be fun, I am referring to Arlington Virginia just outside of DC :p. I joined WikiProject: Mathematics and the cleanup "team" unfourtanetly I havent gotten anything on my desk yet, oh well. Trying to fill in the mathematics requested articles...10 or so done...a "few" more to be done heh. Anyway, I am really enjoying it so far.

Isn't it incredible? :D

Yeah, and I have always been a big reader of it...so its nice to contribute. However it is now 2:15...so im going to go to bed.

Neeharika,

Sorry so long to respond. I was doing MIT visits to Chicago and Madison, WI. I'm assuming that one of your SAT I scores is the old SAT and one is the new SAT I. If that is the case, I'd suggest that you re-take the SAT I again. If that is not the case and both tests are the new SAT I, don't worry, we'll use the highest verbal and math scores. If you retake thew SAT I in November, we should get the scores in time for early action.

Raghavendra,

I will pass your blog entry on to the appropiate peole in the Admissions office. I suggest that you send in a short letter explaining the details of this snafu. That way you are covered.

Anon,

Feel free to submit both pieces as they are generally related to each other. Do not send any orginal material as we can not guarentee that it will be returned.

Anon,

We will begin to review Early Action applications as soon as we have a critical mass. Typically that happens after the deadline. We won't begin Regular Decision until after we've completed the Early Action Process. We won't begin Regular review until after January 1st.

April,

We will still look at your application holistically, reguardlessly of your method of education. While we won't hold it against you if you have not completed course work in AP classes, we will need to rely on something that can give us an indication of your academic ability. Have you taken any college courses? If yes, we'll place additional weight in those areas as well.

Hi Mr. Nance
I'm interested in being invovled in sports, should I get to MIT. I should contact a coach about this, right? What should I say? Can I approach more than one coach-different sports?
Thanks fo all the usefull info.

Hi,
my questions are:
(1.) what percentile of SAT scores are applicants required to have?
(2.) I live here in America but had my high school education in Nigeria, am I regarded as an international student?

Another homeschooler question. :P

I took physics in 6th and 8th grade, and chem in 7th and 9th. The reason being that when I was in those grades my mom taught chem and physics at a local private school, so I took them then so I could have the lab work. On the part of the application where you have to list the course work 6-8th grades aren't options (I can see why), so what should I do?
Thanks billions!
April

April, just list out "Physics (6th to 8th grade)" on the form, and likewise for "Chemistry (7th grade)

You can then check the "9" for the 9th grade Chemistry.

Amandy, there's no cut-off scores for MIT. Instead, I'll refer you to Matt's blog, where he says this:

http://matt.mitblogs.com/archives/2005/09/meeting_faq.html

What scores should I get? Are my scores good enough?

We do not make decisions based on test scores. There is no formula for admission, and there are no minimum test scores. Test scores are one of many parts of the application that inform our decision. Admissions decisions at MIT are made following a holistic, subjective review of each applicant.

That being said, I know that folks are still (understandably) very concerned about test scores. To give you a sense of things, here are the middle 50% score ranges of students admitted to the Class of 2009 [MyMIT]:
SAT I Verbal: [690, 770]
SAT I Math: [740, 800]
ACT Composite: [31, 34]
SAT II Math: [740, 800]
SAT II Science: [710, 790]
SAT II Humanities: [700, 780]
(Please remember that we are not considering the new SAT Writing test this year.)

Also, it's worth noting that more than 35% of students (370+ students) admitted to the Class of 2008 had SAT I Verbal scores lower than 700, and 11% (110+ students) had SAT I Math scores lower than 700 [CDS]. In the end, it is being a good fit & match with MIT that makes the decision.

I had posted this somewhere in another blog, though.

Also, your status as an international or US applicant is determined solely by citizenship. So if you're like me, a Canadian in Singapore, I'm considered an international applicant with citizenship status "Canadian" (bcoz Canada isn't USA's 51st state). So just go by your citizenship to know your status.

Does the "scholastic distinctions" cover non-academic awards?

Hi Mr. Nance,

You mentioned that if our high school offers AP Calc BC and we are not taking it, it looks as if we are not working to our full potential. How can I make it clear to MIT that I tried to take both AP Calc BC and AP Physics C, but I am a new senior at my school and they teach these courses with the assumption that students already have a year of Calculus behind them and therefore would not permit me to take these courses despite a recommendation from my previous math teacher? I will mention this in the section 7 optional information, but my guidance counselor has already sent the couselor's form so the admissions officers would just have to take my word for it. Or should I get my guidance counselor to send a letter to MIT to confirm this?

Thanks,
Nabil

HI mr. nance,
i have sent in my application and done the interview so i'm finally FREE (not really) but pretty happy except for one thing.
My school wants to send out all our applications. Unforunately the women who sends them out is extremely old and forgetful. She gave me a fee waiver and forgot to let me sign it. Would that be a problem? if there is something missing in your applications will MIT notify you about it? also, does that optional part in the applications give you any brownie points?

Thanks,
Carly Cobbold