I have a compaint to make about the interview conducted by [name removed] who took my interview in December 2006. I had asked MIT admissions via mai what were the exact things required for preparation for the interview. I was told that the chat would be about my passions, hopes and what I wanted to do. Instead, I was scolded by him for not showing my essay to him and getting it written by a professional essay writer and for writing and sending it by myself. Also, I was asked to prepare a synopsis about the exact project I wanted to work on (along with the technicalities) at MIT. A questionaire type session was held which focussed entirely on the various projects in fields I wasnt interested in (like nanotechnology) even though I had told him I was solely interested in Electronics. I want to ask that if the interview was more about technical aspects of undergraduate studies rather than about myself and the field I was interested in, why didnt I get a reply from MIT even when I asked them.And if the MIT interview is not to be held this way, I urge you to look into the matter.

Hi Ishan,

I needed to remove the name of the EC from your comment to respect his privacy, but we'll definitely look into this. Sorry to hear about your experience.

Ben

I'm sooooooo happy to see the blogs back online! Keep up the good work!

I'm glad to see the admissions staff moving forward in a positive way.

Dear Mr. Schmill,

I'm sorry this has happened, but I will hold confidence that MIT will come out of this situation stronger than before.

I do have serious and sincere questions and am hoping you can give clarity to some confusion:

If Marilee's messages about "less stress" and "quality vs quantity" are to be believed, why did Marilee tell a large audience at CPW '06 that she was having her daughter apply to 11 (eleven) colleges, which must have been very stressful?

Now my daughter, who heard Marilee that day and is considering applying to MIT in two years, believes she has to apply to 11 (eleven) colleges, too. What would you have me tell my daughter?

Thank you and best wishes,

Mom, Class '10

Dear Mom,

Perhaps she just wanted her daughter to have a wide variety of colleges to choose from and apply to, or maybe her daughter WANTED to do that. You should tell your daughter to do whatever she thinks is right when it's time for her to apply - be that 11 colleges or 1. She needs to be her own person.

Dear Mom,

My high school counselors always instructed me to apply to as many schools as I desired, but understanding the difference between the 3 different types of schools. 1. You have your "dream" schools. These are schools that no matter how excellent of a student you might be, there is never a 100% guarantee that you will be excepted. MIT falls into this category with all Ivy League schools as well. 2. You have your "likely" schools. Basically, you've done everything necessary to be accepted, but it's still not a "sure thing." Lastly, 3. You have your "safety school." Anyone applying to college should have at least 1 of these. Your safety school is the one you are absolutely guaranteed an acceptance letter from.

Ultimately, I don't think it matters just how many schools you (or your student) is applying to. It's more important that they have a clear understanding of what category their schools of choice fit into, so that they are not caught off guard if they are denied from their all of their schools and have no where to go.

I think it's very important for student to strive for the best, but also be realistic and have those safety schools just in case the others don't pan out.

marliee jones is still my hero!

Apply to as many colleges as you feel comfortable applying to. I doubt Marilee would say "No, you are not going to apply to 11 colleges because it'll stress you out" if her daughter was willing to do the work. If a prospective freshman feels like 11 would be stressful, just don't fill out 11. Different people have different stress thresholds.

THAT BEING SAID. . .

Yay! I'm so glad the blogs are back, and I'm also glad that people aren't being nasty about this whole situation. This was a well written article, very thought out and well-put. Are we thinking that the other bloggers welcomed the break, or are they chomping at the bit to blog again???

Thank you for your responses.

Hopefully, by the time she applies (and matures), I'll have gotten over my "sticker shock" about the number eleven and will be able to help our family through whatever stress will come our way.

Best wishes and good luck to everyone.

Bye, Mom Class '10

I'm very glad they appointed you as the Interim Director of Admissions. From your words, I can tell that you'll uphold the job admirably, and do justice to the MIT Admissions process.

-James Montgomery

I am happy to see that the blogs have returned, and life is moving forward. And I am also glad that you have been appointed the Interim Director, Mr. Schmill. Who better than an MIT graduate to understand which students will thrive at MIT? I wish you and the admissions staff all the best as you begin anew.

HappyPoet/Mom: I will add one thing to the excellent advice already given here: as the Parent Unit paying for the application process, you are perfectly within your rights to set a limit on the number of schools your daughter applies to. Won't hurt her a bit; she can only go to one school, anyway. Just let her know what your limits are.

Besides the fact that the applications are themselves pricey ($50-75 each this year), take into consideration the costs of: test-taking; sending scores beyond the 4 "free" ones allowed; AP test fees, and fees for sending those scores too; any travel to visit schools; financial aid processing fees (IDOC and CSS). Most of these have a "fee waiver" process, if you qualify, and are willing to reveal the soft white underbelly of your finances. But these things often take us old baby boomers (many of whom were able to work our way through college--forget that now!) by surprise. You've been down this road already, though!

If your daughter is focused and sure about what she wants, this won't even be an issue. If she's questioning, she might appreciate limits to help her focus.

Granted, the action of the dean does fly in the face of honesty and integrity that are core values for any institution of learning, let us also acknowledge the fact that it doesn't necessarily take a degreed individual to be totally successful in the job she was doing. She clearly demonstrated a passion for doing what she was tasked to do and she served the best interest of MIT by admitting the very best students into MIT year after year. The proof lies in the brightest of young minds that have passed through the extremely challenging educational system at MIT in the past years and made giant contributions to society. To that extend, we all must be thankful to the dean.

Overall, the way MIT dealt with the situation was commendable. There is just no other way it could have been handled. The integrity and name of the institution has to be kept above board no matter what - that is exactlty what MIT did.

Hello there,

I am a sophmore iin high school, and i was just wondering. What would you suggest would be the best way to get into MIT? Its one of the most competitive schools in the United States, and i would love to be in that enviroment. However, i go to a private high school which gives more work than my friends get. Its often hard to handle the workload that we receive and i am possitive that MIT is my first choice. The reason im am positng this here is because this article got me worried about the admissions proccess. How will i ever get in to a college that everyone wants to go to as well as stay succesfull?

Despite what she may have done 28-odd years ago, she reformed the system in a very positive way, and I think will never be forgotten for that. Making college admissions less stressful is something that every college should be striving to do, and I think Marileen Jones was the forerunner in that.

Moving on from that topic though, I would like to ask a question to admissions.

I am currently studying abroad my junior year of high school. My question is how this may affect admission. I am receiving credit from my American school for some of the classes I am taking, but the grades do not count, as I did not start learning the language (Czech) until I got to the country, and was not able to participate in the classes. Now, even when I participate when I can, the grades I recieve are not good because I do not understand everything, and have missed a good chunk of the material. So basically, I will not have junior year grades, but rather an unusual experience during which I have learned about many things other than those you learn about in school.

I would just like to know admissions thought on a situation like this.

This is a question thousands of applicants are asking but nobody can answer. Take a Look at this guy:

http://www.collegeconfidential.com/ivy_league/ivy_league_cs3.htm

Perfect test scores, honors, great extracurricular activities including volunteer work. But as you can see under "Ivy League Admissions - Outcomes & Conclusion" he got rejected from MIT. The whole application process is sometimes really a mystery.

I'm glag to see the blogs are coming back. I really think it is the best way to reassure us that everything is (or will be) alright.

I am also glad that the staff is looking towards a positive movement

Becca,

You are in the EXACT same situation I was in my junior year. I was a Rotary exchange student in Argentina my junior year. I didn't learn Spanish until I got there, and therefore did not receive grades at all. I was really worried about getting into college, but I'm going to MIT next year so I'm proof that it can be done! My advice to you would be to take full advantage of your experience abroad and start worrying about college applications when you get home. Try to take the most advanced courses you can during your senior year, even if that means catching up on your own time. In my case, the exchange didn't hurt my chances of getting in to MIT at all. In fact, having such an unusual high school experience probably helped my chances. Enjoy the rest of your time abroad and good luck next year!

It is really sad that this has taken place, and it is even more sad that people on college confidential see that if marlee could get away with somthing like what she did, that when applying maybe thay should be decitful to get what they want..... what is the world coming to!!!!!

Hello,

I would like to know if that will affect the Transfer Admissions process in any way (will decisions still be mailed on May 15?)

you know, '86 was the year I was born :o

-lulu

Amen to that Snively! Go MIT Class of 2011!

It's a bit of a struggle, reconciling Ms. Jones' very real accomplishments with her very wrong actions, and I can only imagine what the people who knew her best – who worked with her every day for years – must be going through.

Congratulations to you, Matt, Ben, the admissions office and the entire school community for handling a difficult situation with honesty, grace and professionalism.

But then, I wouldn’t expect anything else from MIT.

I'm glad to see that everything has continued well, no matter what may have happened. It really says a lot about the school and its staff. Though I won't go into everything about how I feel here, I would like to say one thing to duff. Thousands of people apply to MIT every year. A good number of them probably do have perfect scores, but MIT's admissions has been very clear about that in their website, and on their application. Perfect scores doesn't mean perfect students. They want people who want to make a difference (one of the reasons for the interview). They want students who have character, a will to make a difference, and good scores to boot. I shouldn't talk because I don't know the student who wrote that on college confidential, but I think we should have more confidence in the selections that MIT has made and continues to make.

It is a joke that in the last 10 years, MIT admission office had been headed by a woman who did not even have a college degree. She was not qualifed to do her job. She is a liar. She set very bad examples to the high school students in US.

This woman even took advantage of her title at MIT Admission Office to co-author a book about admission and advertised it on the web site at MIT. It is unthical for this woman to do that. Many parents bough her book because of her title. Now we found out that we were being cheated by this liar. I don't know why MIT would allow this woman to advertise her book on the MIT web site.

Response to Duff's post:
Marcel, the student profiled on CollegeConfidential, is an international student. International students face far more competition for positions in U.S. schools than do U.S. citizens. I think MIT admits only 100 or so international students to undergrad study. We don't know anything about other applicants from the same country as Marcel, but they could have been just as strong. The main thing I'd ask is this: So what if he didn't get into MIT? He was accepted to Cornell, Carnegie Mellon, and several other great schools. There are no guarantees of acceptance to an elite school like MIT, no matter how good one's profile. MIT, like many other schools, assembles a class of students with diverse interests and backgrounds. Marcel will have a wonderful education at one of his other choices, and he can apply to MIT for graduate school later, if he chooses.

I agree with De Petagma Saru, and I'll repeat what's been said 8 gazillion times: It's all about the match.

The MIT admissions process is completely transparent, it's amazing. There is nothing they won't tell you about how they decide who gets in. They have an introductory screener, they have a review by a member of the admissions staff, they have committee meetings, and then the final decision is made by the dean. They look for people that are smart, dedicated, want to make a difference, and have a personality. If they feel as though you'll get along well at MIT, then you "match". Seriously, if you have any doubt or questions about how the admissions at MIT work, just ask Ben Jones or Matt McGann, they'll answer your questions in a really straightforward way, there's no hiding anything.

@ Duff: You know, I read this article before, and I can't help but wonder if Marcel actually exists. Call me paranoid, but I have always posessed the suspicion that that student profile, and his rejections, were fictitious, and created in order to inflate the sense of terror and inadequacy inspired in students applying to elite universities in order to help sell more "application coaching" services and materials. I still remember the heart attack I suffered on hearing that a student such as that was rejected from MIT, figuring I must not have a ghost of a chance, and the surprise inspired when I was accepted. *note* I am neither making accustations nor attempting to slander any organization involved with that article. I am simply stating the path of a thought I had on the matter.

@A Parent: Although Marilee's initial choice to falsify her credentials was certainly a bad example, nothing I have read implies she was unqualified. Indeed, we might do well to consider whether college degrees are really as necessary to success as society would have us believe. Of course you want a college education for your child, as I want one for myself--nor do I mean to suggest that college degrees are superfluous. Yet dismissing all a person's accomplishments simply because he or she did not graduate seems unreasonably prejudiced. Is this how we judge human worth?

The wisdom Marilee contributed to her book was her own. If you bought the book, I presume you chose to do so based on her reputation as an innovative and insightful admissions director, not because of her purported colleges--weren't you paying for the content rather than the cover?

I agree with many others on here. Marilee Jones did an admirable job. She did something wrong years ago - that does not define her now, nor does it make her contributions to MIT worthless. One can be insightful, intelligent, and ADEQUATE without having lived a perfect life.

That said, I'm glad that MIT is moving forward. MIT handled this in the best way possible.

Note: Read The Tech. She DOES have a college degree, just not at those institutions.

I just came to know about what happened with Marilee Jones some moments ago, and it made my heart go out for her.
It's sad to see someone make mistakes in the past, but then its even worse to see that they're not forgiven in future. She may have made that mistake when she was young, and less mature, but that never changes what she actually was - a gem of a person. Her only mistake was that she had failed to admit her mistake, not out of the desire to lie, but only because she knew that it would cost her something that she deeply loved.
Marilee Jones was indeed a person for whom, MIT's wellbeing was everything, and having lost her, I am sure that MIT is going to miss her. All of us students and applicants will miss her. Its never easy to let go of a person as genuine as her.

I know it may sound easy, but I still wish that Marilee was forgiven for her mistake. All of us make mistakes in our youth; its only a part of growing up. Add to that the fact that she didn't reveal her details because she was in love with MIT, no less. MIT has lost a lot.

I had applied to MIT for Fall - 2007 and got rejected. It does not matter at all, because of all people at MIT, I believe that Marilee would've wanted me to get admitted. And now, I'm glad that I didn't make it, because it certainly would've been hard to see all this happening.

I still have the letter of denial. Denial it may be, but it is going to stay with me for a long time to come.

God Bless,

Ashesh, India.

Ok, so Marilee resigned. But now she has some wonderful recommendations as being a great person and having achieved a lot in admissions process at MIT. So why not invite her to come back to MIT with her real documents and CV? Or everything is not that simple?

Oh, and I my suggestion really happens I would like to get a compensation for suggesting it. Let's say, admit my application to MIT :)

I am so impressed at MIT by the honesty and the candidness that it had exhibited over the issue of Marilee Jone's resignation. Although Marilee's actions are regrettable, MIT did not sweep the issue under the rug or delay the information to the general public as long as possible.

Your admission department is amazing. Keep the great work up!

-Chris, '11 (oasis)

Duff - The annual pool of applicants for freshman admission to MIT includes a great many more amazingly well-qualified applicants than MIT can accept. The challenge for MIT is to decide among the many most strongly qualified applicants. Each year many applicants who no doubt would have thrived at MIT are not accepted. What makes MIT admissions so "competitive" is that being a strongly qualified applicant puts you in the running, but is not a guarantee of admission.

This means we all know amazing applicants who didn't get into MIT (and other amazing applicants who didn't get into Stanford or Harvard, of course). Because their records are so strong, though, these applicants typically do get admitted to great schools - witness that the sample applicant got into several great schools. For example, the sample applicant was admitted to the University of Michigan (not even one of his top choices among the schools that admitted him), and Michigan is the university from which MIT's most recent past president, Chuck Vest, holds his M.S. and Ph.D. degrees.

Also the point that the sample applicant was an international applicant is key, as has been pointed out. MIT does limit the number of international applicants admitted, so that pool is even more competitive than the main pool.

The fact is that no student, no matter how amazing, would be well-advised to apply to MIT, or any other "dream" school, and nowhere else. Someone else wrote way above about applying to dream schools, likely schools and safety schools. Whether the total number of schools to which a student applies is eleven or some much smaller number, what matters is for an applicant to pick schools he really is interested in attending, and at least one of which will surely admit him. Where along the desirability/likelihood curve the rest of the schools fit, and to how many an applicant decides to apply, involves many quite individual and personal choices.

Please read the news:

Marilee Jones falsely bolstered her credentials to get a job with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and over the course of her career claimed to have earned degrees from three schools. MIT officials say now they have no evidence she ever graduated from college at all.

The school announced Thursday that Jones had resigned after acknowledging she had misrepresented her education when she started working at the university 28 years ago, and declined to correct multiple incorrect claims since then.

A senior MIT official said that by claiming degrees she had never earned, Jones could no longer lead an admissions office that occasionally rescinds the acceptance letters sent to applicants who are untruthful about their own accomplishments.

Jones was asked to resign because her actions go "against her being a model for integrity that an admissions director sets," Clay said. "It represents a very, very long deception, when there were opportunities to correct the record. This is not a mistake or an accident or an oversight."

_________________________________________________

Details:

MIT dean resigns over misrepresented credentials
POSTED: 12:15 p.m. EDT, April 27, 2007
AP) -- To stressed-out parents and students, MIT admissions dean Marilee Jones was a rare voice of reason in the high-pressure world of college admissions. With colleges demanding kids who play sports, run student government and take the heaviest course load they can, Jones shouted back the opposite: daydream, stay healthy, and don't worry so much about building a resume just to impress an elite college.

Yet it turns out that Jones was susceptible to pressure herself. She falsely bolstered her credentials to get a job with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and over the course of her career claimed to have earned degrees from three schools. MIT officials say now they have no evidence she ever graduated from college at all.

The school announced Thursday that Jones had resigned after acknowledging she had misrepresented her education when she started working at the university 28 years ago, and declined to correct multiple incorrect claims since then.

A senior MIT official said that by claiming degrees she had never earned, Jones could no longer lead an admissions office that occasionally rescinds the acceptance letters sent to applicants who are untruthful about their own accomplishments.

"We have to uphold the integrity of the institution, because that's what we've been trying to sell and she's our chief spokesperson on that," MIT Chancellor Phil Clay said. It's "regrettable, ironic, sad, but that's where we are."

Jones had become one of the most public voices urging parents, students and especially colleges themselves to "lower the flame" surrounding college admissions. She made the cause her own after growing alarmed at the increase in stress-related health problems among young people and has become a much-in-demand speaker at admissions events.

Last year, she co-authored a book: "Less Stress, More Success: A New Approach to Guiding Your Teen Through College Admissions and Beyond."

"We're raising a generation of kids trained to please adults," Jones told The Associated Press in an extensive interview last year. "Every day kids should have time when they're doing something where they're not being judged. That's the big difference with this generation. They're being judged and graded and analyzed and assessed at every turn. It's too much pressure for them."

On Thursday, MIT released a short statement from Jones in which she said she was "deeply sorry for this and for disappointing so many in the MIT community and beyond who supported me, believed in me, and who have given me extraordinary opportunities."

Clay said MIT was alerted to questions about Jones' credentials in a phone call, from someone he declined to identify, to another dean. An inquiry determined Jones had at various points claimed degrees from Union College, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and the Albany Medical College, all in New York, but in fact had no degrees from any of those institutions. Clay said MIT was not aware of Jones having any undergraduate or graduate degree.

Jones was confronted on Monday, acknowledged the misrepresentations and accepted a request to resign, Clay said.

Jason Gorss, a spokesman for RPI, said Jones attended that university as a part-time, non-matriculating student in 1974 and 1975 but did not receive a degree. Officials at the other two schools said she had never been a student there.

A number of people in the college admissions field said they were saddened by the news and hoped Jones would find another venue for continuing her cause.

"She's been such a high impact and good influence on all of these admissions conversations," said Bruce Poch, dean of admissions at Pomona College in California, who knows Jones well. "This hurts."

Clay said MIT now checks credentials of new hires but did not generally do so when Jones first applied to work there. The first job she applied for, as an administrative assistant, did not require a college degree, but Clay said Jones claimed to have one. He said she did not correct that claim during her appointment process as dean in 1997.

Jones was asked to resign because her actions go "against her being a model for integrity that an admissions director sets," Clay said. "It represents a very, very long deception, when there were opportunities to correct the record. This is not a mistake or an accident or an oversight."

Lloyd Thacker, the founder of the Education Conservancy, a group also trying to tone down the admissions process, said Jones "has had a very positive impact on the lives of many students and families and has brought inspiration to the professions." Her resignation "in no way discredits the value of her work," he said.

Please read the news:

Marilee Jones falsely bolstered her credentials to get a job with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and over the course of her career claimed to have earned degrees from three schools. MIT officials say now they have no evidence she ever graduated from college at all.

The school announced Thursday that Jones had resigned after acknowledging she had misrepresented her education when she started working at the university 28 years ago, and declined to correct multiple incorrect claims since then.

A senior MIT official said that by claiming degrees she had never earned, Jones could no longer lead an admissions office that occasionally rescinds the acceptance letters sent to applicants who are untruthful about their own accomplishments.

Jones was asked to resign because her actions go "against her being a model for integrity that an admissions director sets," Clay said. "It represents a very, very long deception, when there were opportunities to correct the record. This is not a mistake or an accident or an oversight."

_________________________________________________

Details:

MIT dean resigns over misrepresented credentials
POSTED: 12:15 p.m. EDT, April 27, 2007
AP) -- To stressed-out parents and students, MIT admissions dean Marilee Jones was a rare voice of reason in the high-pressure world of college admissions. With colleges demanding kids who play sports, run student government and take the heaviest course load they can, Jones shouted back the opposite: daydream, stay healthy, and don't worry so much about building a resume just to impress an elite college.

Yet it turns out that Jones was susceptible to pressure herself. She falsely bolstered her credentials to get a job with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and over the course of her career claimed to have earned degrees from three schools. MIT officials say now they have no evidence she ever graduated from college at all.

The school announced Thursday that Jones had resigned after acknowledging she had misrepresented her education when she started working at the university 28 years ago, and declined to correct multiple incorrect claims since then.

A senior MIT official said that by claiming degrees she had never earned, Jones could no longer lead an admissions office that occasionally rescinds the acceptance letters sent to applicants who are untruthful about their own accomplishments.

"We have to uphold the integrity of the institution, because that's what we've been trying to sell and she's our chief spokesperson on that," MIT Chancellor Phil Clay said. It's "regrettable, ironic, sad, but that's where we are."

Jones had become one of the most public voices urging parents, students and especially colleges themselves to "lower the flame" surrounding college admissions. She made the cause her own after growing alarmed at the increase in stress-related health problems among young people and has become a much-in-demand speaker at admissions events.

Last year, she co-authored a book: "Less Stress, More Success: A New Approach to Guiding Your Teen Through College Admissions and Beyond."

"We're raising a generation of kids trained to please adults," Jones told The Associated Press in an extensive interview last year. "Every day kids should have time when they're doing something where they're not being judged. That's the big difference with this generation. They're being judged and graded and analyzed and assessed at every turn. It's too much pressure for them."

On Thursday, MIT released a short statement from Jones in which she said she was "deeply sorry for this and for disappointing so many in the MIT community and beyond who supported me, believed in me, and who have given me extraordinary opportunities."

Clay said MIT was alerted to questions about Jones' credentials in a phone call, from someone he declined to identify, to another dean. An inquiry determined Jones had at various points claimed degrees from Union College, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and the Albany Medical College, all in New York, but in fact had no degrees from any of those institutions. Clay said MIT was not aware of Jones having any undergraduate or graduate degree.

Jones was confronted on Monday, acknowledged the misrepresentations and accepted a request to resign, Clay said.

Jason Gorss, a spokesman for RPI, said Jones attended that university as a part-time, non-matriculating student in 1974 and 1975 but did not receive a degree. Officials at the other two schools said she had never been a student there.

A number of people in the college admissions field said they were saddened by the news and hoped Jones would find another venue for continuing her cause.

"She's been such a high impact and good influence on all of these admissions conversations," said Bruce Poch, dean of admissions at Pomona College in California, who knows Jones well. "This hurts."

Clay said MIT now checks credentials of new hires but did not generally do so when Jones first applied to work there. The first job she applied for, as an administrative assistant, did not require a college degree, but Clay said Jones claimed to have one. He said she did not correct that claim during her appointment process as dean in 1997.

Jones was asked to resign because her actions go "against her being a model for integrity that an admissions director sets," Clay said. "It represents a very, very long deception, when there were opportunities to correct the record. This is not a mistake or an accident or an oversight."

Lloyd Thacker, the founder of the Education Conservancy, a group also trying to tone down the admissions process, said Jones "has had a very positive impact on the lives of many students and families and has brought inspiration to the professions." Her resignation "in no way discredits the value of her work," he said.

HIGHER EDUCATION
MIT admissions dean resigns amid scandal

After admitting to falsifying her academic credentials, MIT Dean of Admissions Marilee Jones resigned yesterday.

"I misrepresented my academic degrees when I first applied to MIT 28 years ago and did not have the courage to correct my resume when I applied for my current job or at any time since," she said in a statement posted on MIT's website.

Throughout her time at MIT, Jones was believed to have received degrees from Albany Medical College, Union College and Rennselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI), when in fact none of the three institutions had conferred a degree on her, MIT Chancellor Phillip Clay explained in a statement.

An RPI official confirmed that Jones had been a part-time student at the Troy, N.Y., school during the 1974-75 academic year, though she did not officially matriculate. Albany Medical College and Union College had no records in her name.

Jones started work in the MIT admissions office in an entry-level position that did not require a college degree, Clay said. By the time she was under consideration for the position of dean of admissions, Jones had already become a central figure in the office, holding the positions of assistant dean and associate dean. Thus, MIT did not make any effort to check her credentials at that time.

About a week and a half ago, however, MIT received information that threw Jones' credentials into question. Several days of investigation were enough for the institution to ask for her resignation Monday.

I found this on MIT web site last Saturday.
It is a joke that Marilee Jones claimed herself to be a scientist ...

____________________________________________

Marilee Jones is Dean of Admissions at MIT. A scientist by training, she joined the MIT Admissions Office in 1979 to lead the recruitment efforts for women.

Source: www.mitadmissions.org/Marilee.shtml ·

Dear news guys and jokers, I'm pretty sure that we've all read the news by now, and have been reading this stuff for the past week that we have known about this. How about respecting the feelings of the MIT staff, current students, and prospective students by just dropping it and letting them move forward like they are trying to do. We know what's happened and is happening, and it has taken bravery for MIT to be so open about all of this. Allow them at least a bit of peace as they are trying to move along. They're proving themselves strong in a time of trial, can you say that you could do that?

Yes. I agree:

"It represents a very, very long deception, when there were opportunities to correct the record. This is not a mistake or an accident or an oversight."

Throughout her time at MIT, Jones was believed to have received degrees from Albany Medical College, Union College and Rennselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI), when in fact none of the three institutions had conferred a degree on her, MIT Chancellor Phillip Clay explained in a statement.

An RPI official confirmed that Jones had been a part-time student at the Troy, N.Y., school during the 1974-75 academic year, though she did not officially matriculate. Albany Medical College and Union College had no records in her name.

We are in America! We have the freedom to express our opinion.

We are upset at Marilee Jones, not MIT's admission office or students. As a matter of fact, MIT is the victim of Jones' deception.

MIT is the opposite of a victim of Marilee Jones.
What she did for the admissions department, for MIT, and for college admissions in general, is amazing. I have nothing but respect for the way she ran the department and the way that she put herself in such a prominent and controversial position despite the fact that she knew that she was in a very delicate place.
As someone said earlier, she may not have had the credentials she said she had, but she was certainly well-qualified. I hope that we can all continue her admirable work in making college admissions human again.

Cheers to that Kari. A person with Marilee Jones' ideas doesn't get such a title simply because of three degrees. They get it through hard work and true innovative ideas, like creating a somewhat less stressful atmosphere for college application. Few colleges take the time to care if you're human or not, and as long as you have the right numbers, you can come in.

Marliee Jones claimed herself to have 3 degrees and a scientist. She is a liar! That is why she was forced to resign from her position. That is the fact. Please don't argue!

How would you like your child's application to MIT be reviewed by a liar? That is why so many parents in US are so upset!

I don't want to ruin my weekend discussing about this extremely unpleasant topics. Case closed!
Bye! Bye! PS. I will not go to MIT web site anymore.

Haha, I was born in '86 too. =)

I agree with the MIT community; although the actions which took place 28 years ago have forced the Institute into its current situation, Marilee Jones did nothing but good for the admissions community, the MIT community, and the rest of the world during her stay.

We are all indebted to her, like it or not, and none of us is perfect either. Let it go.

That's rather harsh. No one here is denying that Marilee Jones did indeed lie about her credentials for 28 years, and most of us - myself including - are extremely saddened she chose to perpetuate that awful misrepresentation.

Even so, I cannot agree with the way you simply write Marilee off as "a liar." Not only is your remark extremely demeaning, it completely disregards the high standards and commitments of the rest of the Admissions Committee. Whatever else you believe about Marilee, she - as Kari so rightly pointed out - did a world of good for MIT, and college admissions in general. Whatever else she did, whatever lies she told, no one can take that from her; and I wish they'd stop trying.

*deep breath*

With that out of the way, let me just say hooray for the blogs being back! Can't wait to get my Orientation package. :)

i know this is out of place but am i supposed to be notified that i have officially been enrolled?
P.S.
No one says Marilee did the right thing by "telling a lie". I just wonder what prompted the person who decided to check out her credentials after so many years only when she was promoting her book. Hasn't she been dean for 10yrs?
To the guys on College confidential; calling her a liar won't get you to MIT!
And i totally agree with Emily, are people buying her book because of what it says or because she is the one who wrote it?
Please let's all be encouraging and supportive of MIT so the blogs can continue. They were not put up to be site for embarrassing MIT, Marilee and especially her family. All of us make mistakes; hers is simply made worse because of her position.
Thanks

I seriously respect the transprency and honesty MIT admit staff have with there applicants and the people associated with them. MIT could have easily buried the news and have made it look a normal retirement, but no, thats what makes MIT different and thats what makes it the number 1. Hats Off!

This whole thing actually made me more eager to get associated with MIT in any form possible. Really a place to be..

-Arihant.

in my country this won't even count as a serious crime. i really didn't think it was going to be an issue of such tremendous proportions. hasn't she resigned? do you guys want blood?
anyway, goes to show that we have a long way to go before we start making an issue over somebody's credentials when her decisions are actually improving the community.

I have a couple of questions for the MIT Undergrad Admissions Office. Is Mr. Schmill taking the pace of Mrs. Jones? Also, will admission policies and standards change next year because of this? I understand that Mrs. Jones took a holistic view of each applicant and didn't simply focus on SAT scores and numbers. I'm possibly applying to MIT next year, but I'm afraid that her resignation will change how MIT admits students.

Wow, you guys are beating a dead horse right now. She was obviously qualified, look at the last 10 classes selected as admits to MIT (including my class, at least I hope haha), I don't think anyone can say she didn't do her job correctly in any way, shape or form, so please stop beating the topic, this post is about moving on - why don't people actually post with respect to the topic instead of continuing on with personal grudges. Seriously, have more class.

And thanks Mr. Schmill, I'll speak for the '11s and thank you for a well-written post and for the well wishes for next year.

And if you want a joke, here's one - So, there are a bunch of functions hanging out at all of the prime locations in the city, and many of them decide to take a ride on the Number Line, the mode of transportation about the cartesian plane. Suddenly, a crazed, disjointed graph runs in, exclaiming "ILL DIFFERENTIATE YOU, I'LL INTEGRATE YOU!" Seemingly all the functions cower in their respective quadrants, guarding their local extrema. However, one function begged to differ. The disjoint graph again screamed, "ILL DIFFERENTIATE YOU, I'LL INTEGRATE YOU!" Confusedly, after no sight of concavity, he asked "You aren't afraid of me? I'll reduce you to zero!" The function stood up and declared "I am not afraid. I am e^x."

:-D

*place (not pace, sorry)

@Jon

I

wow Jon, very special

Jon, you are my hero. I love math jokes the size of Texas.

Along that same line...e^x was at a party one Saturday night, and was having a bit of trouble mingling with the rest of the crowd, so he decided to just sit in the corner and look on. Noticing his morosity, x^2 came along and tried to encourage him. "Why don't you try to integrate yourself into the party? I'm sure we can find a nice function that you're compatible with," said x^2. His despair deepening, e^x replied with frustration, "I have, but it just doesn't make any difference!"

:P

That is a joke, not Marilee Jones. I'm incredibly disappointed in the way some people are publicly demeaning her and trying to treat all of her accomplishments as though they are insignificant. As has already been stated, she has done a world of good for the college admissions process, and something she did 28 years ago should not completely negate the obvious fact that she has positively influenced the world.

I personally feel indebted to Marilee Jones for my acceptance; MIT was not a college I would have even considered until I got a letter in the mail one day with the statement "You're Ready" on the front. I don't remember exactly what compelled me to open it (as any high school junior who took the SATs knows, you'll end up with boxes and boxes and boxes of college mail that you'll never even give a second thought to), but I did, and I will never regret that decision. From that day on, MIT became the number one school on my list, no, the ONLY school on my list (I didn't want to go anywhere else, and don't think I would have been happy anywhere else, so if you're applying to college next year, HAVE MORE SENSE THAN ME), and I attribute that obsession to Marilee Jones' effort to recruit women and to make the college admissions process less intimidating and more personable. I really felt as though I was not just some piece of paper being considered for admission; I was a human being, and the admissions department really cared about me as a person, and where I was to end up for the next four years.

So maybe I'm biased, and I'm sure people could probably make the case that I wouldn't feel as I do if I hadn't been accepted, but honestly, what other college admissions office will send you a Valentine's Day card? Very few, I imagine. And what other deans of admissions would get up in front of their newly admitted class and sing the Rolling Stones at Battle of the Bands? Even fewer. Probably none. That's why Marliee Jones was one of a kind. She cared. And she was not afraid to do whatever she possibly could to show it.

As jasmine said, Marilee Jones is still my hero! I wish her the best, and I hope people can find it in themselves to let her change the world again.

"You can't always get what you want,
But if you try sometimes,
You just might find,
You get what you need..."

Here's for saying that I hope she finds the chance she needs. An amazing person like her deserves it.

I would just like to point out that Marcel DePaul, the person in the above-mentioned article is actually a US citizen. Read the end of the page carefully.

Personally, I think that all this talk about admitting the highest-achieving students is completely insincere. Let's just look at the international admissions process. We can safely assume that out of all the international olympiad qualifiers, there are at least 100 that apply to MIT (there were at least 400 participants only in the IMO). These persons have all achieved more than anyone of us. Their accomplishements are due precisely to the qualities that MIT values: creativity, curiosity, patience, dedication, etc, and they certainly outweigh volunteer work, sports, or any of the acitvities that the vast majority of admitted applicants list. If the principle of admitting only the highest achieving students is true, then admitted international applicants would all be olympiad participants (or winners of similar awards), which is certainly not the case.

Therefore, the admissions process evaluates applicants using some other criteria, which most likely is completely subjective. It has to do with some vague interest the officers have in an applicant and on an estimation of a person's character that simply cannot be objectively done based on 3-4 pages of unverified material. This makes the admissions process very much random. Maybe there are some reasons behind this approach, but in any case we should not be told that the admitted applicants are the "best" or those who have used opportunities to the fullest (how do you measure "fullest"? how do you know a persons true potential?) or those who truly achieve the most.

Anyway, these are just my two cents.

"Marliee Jones claimed herself to have 3 degrees and a scientist. She is a liar! That is why she was forced to resign from her position. That is the fact. Please don't argue!"

I find it amusing that you urge people to uphold your right to freedom of speech, and then deny them the chance to express it themselves. To make matters worse, you run away like a feeble-minded little sheep, disgracing yourself and those who cared enough to read your posts.

My foolish fellow, your pseudonym suits you —yes, that's exactly what you are: a joke.

- - - - - - - - - -
If any other person wishes to taint the name of Mrs. Jones, they should peruse their own thoughts and actions first, so they may see that their wrongdoings were just as bad or worse; the only difference being, of course, that she actually contributed something beneficial to mankind.

This is a delicate matter, and such blatant insults are not welcomed.
- - - - - - - - - -

Vova — The ideology of MIT is not to accept the "best," but rather those best-suited to be a part of their culture.

All right Jose.

Now please tell me: how do you define "best-suited" and do how you figure out whether a person is well suited from 3-4 pages of limited information, most of which cannot be verified?

Although, I must admit that you are completely right that MIT does not claim to accept the highest achieving students, but rather those that "match". But isn't there something wrong with this? How does their "match" (the wish to make the world better, collaborative spirit, curiosity, creativity, excitement, etc.) depend on their effort or their perseverance? I'm not saying that there is a fair way of selecting 5% (or 10% or 15%) of applicants from the pool, but I think that the fact that the selection process has an immense part of subjectivity and randomness in it should be acknowledged by everyone, including MIT.

@Vova

Visit the school, go to the info sessions, read the blogs, read the website, read The Tech, check out student websites, talk to kids that got in. What you'll find is a strikingly obvious attitude towards life and philosophy. To test your understanding of what MIT really stands for, ask yourself this basic question: What is the difference between MIT and CalTech? Any Techer or MIT student will be able to tell you the differences in culture and attitude. If, as you say, Olympiads and competitions trump sports and extracurriculars, perhaps CalTech and MIT look like very similar schools because both are academic powerhouses, but a closer look will reveal a striking difference in culture. Not all tech schools are created equal, and CalTech and MIT are proud of their individual identities.

When you start to truly realize that MIT is not just a tech school and doesn't admit solely based on academic achievments, you will begin to understand what "best-suited" means, in terms of culture. You simply can't define "best-suited", it's more of a feeling. You'll know if you'll fit into MIT and its culture.

Also, it only takes about 2 lines of an essay to understand a lot about a person, and MIT is asking for about 5 essays, not to mention interviews, reccommendations, transcripts, scores, portfolios, and tons of other material. People argue that there simply isn't enough room to express one's true self, but MIT's application is different. I found it extremely easy to convey who I truly was, not in 3-4 pages but in MIT's 16 pages of well-crafted inquiries.

MIT is a unique school filled with thousands of personalities that constantly provide different outlooks and unique perspectives, not simply academic all-stars.

I was going to respond to Vova, but Snively's response said it all.

As for everyone arguing about Marilee, this is all pointless. I think we should follow MIT's response - we all need to move on, no matter what our opinions. When it's said and done, there's no use complaining. Look forward.

(somewhat unrelated)

Every time I read something like, "Marilee Jones is a liar who shamelessly distorted the truth to make herself at the top of the ladder...blah blah" or "Marilee Jones is a disgrace and deserves to be persecuted by the district attorney...blah blah" or even "Marilee Jones used her position to spite students with high achievement in school because she never had a degree...blah blah" just makes me angry.

So apparently, this world is filled with self-righteous individuals who are beside themselves when it comes to ridiculing people who mess up, and yet ignore the fact that they probably wouldn't have done anything different. Put yourself in Marilee's position - are you honestly going to come out after 28 years of hiding and just say "oops, I screwed up 3 decades ago, please fire me?" Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

During her time at MIT, Marilee helped to oversee many significant changes, including the rise in female admission, the integration of "transparent admissions," and the process of seeking "the match" - which appears to have been discussed extensively above. She did all of this without a doctorate degree, and if you ask me, I *rather* she didn't have a degree in doing so.

The world is so filled with biases on degrees and those small letters that succeed an individual's name. We get caught up worrying about whether someone is a Ph.D. or a M.D., but ignore the fact that there are many people in the world who succeeded in life and bettered their world without a degree. Take Taiwanese Plastic Corporation Chairman Wong Yong-Ching for example: he never went to middle school (only elementary education) and succeeded in revolutionized the plastic industry and became a millionaire through the process. I honestly believe that Marilee's lack of degree never hindered her in her tenure in the Admissions Office.

I fully support MIT's approach to admissions. I applied to 15 colleges this year and MIT has, by far, the most "warm" and enthusiastic admissions team. For those that claim MIT's admission process is still not transparent, I beg you to consider Stanford's. I am still mystified by Stanford - sure, I get colorful brochures from them and enthusiastic letters, but where is the "personal feel" that I find lacking?

Once again, I applaud MIT's approach to this issue - it just demonstrates the professionalism and honesty MIT has towards the admission process.

-Chris '11 (oasis)

"Put yourself in Marilee's position - are you honestly going to come out after 28 years of hiding and just say "oops, I screwed up 3 decades ago, please fire me?" Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

LOL, I was thinking the exact same thing, only you said it in a more relatable and funnier way.

Honestly, I wish Marilee Jones wasn't forced to resign. If she was still the dean, I'd still think I have a chance next year of being admitted.

LC, I'm sure that MIT will continue to follow Marilee Jones' amazing changes to the admissions program over the years. Don't give up hope! =)

Now I get why people here in India say MIT has many unrevieled dark sides. I am not accusing MIT of anything but it made me think that was I a fool applying to MIT and spending so much of my time and effort in a place where everything is not transaparent and right. I DON't THINK SO BUT EVERY INDIAN STUDENT DOES. When I was working day night, all of my friends were unitedly saying that you are just trying to make metal out of water not because of the competetion or anything like that, but all felt that nothing is impartial @ MIT.

Belive me when I say this, I have read all the blogs and still read them even after rejection from MIT, and still love MIT and would still one day like to walk in the infinite corridor.And no matter what I will walk in the infinite corridor one day.

Believe me all the people out here in India say that MIT does not publish it,but they do take good care that they do not admit students with insuficient funds, as was the case with me.

Believe me sir, everyone was shocked here when I got rejected,even my school's Principal. And what everyone said was - " You don't know what's going behind the scenes, they don't want students who can only pay one year's fee, and moreover who the hell would like to help students of some other country". I received e-mails from all my firends aksing me to urge MIT to reconsider the whole admission decision once more!!! I knew it's impossible.

And believe me there's a whole lot of talking going on about MIT and there admission decisions.
I don't doubt it but HAS MADE ME THINK, are people right??, Am I wrong thinking MIT makes decision without financial matters in mind????.I just couldn't resist writing to you.

Also there has been a lot of things going around about the MIt's EC in India about whom Ishan mentioned in his first post=> I must say all this is wrong, i was too interviewed by him. He is a very genuine person and believe's in knowing everything about the applicant. I must say I had to completely demostrate my abilities to him and I think this is what should be done at MIT. I am really sorry to say but all what is going out at MIT about him and at collegeconfdential is nothing but crap. He told me each and everything he could about MIT and that's what is reqd of one interviewer.His interviews were tough, I had to prepare for them but I must say I had to give him a view of all my capabilities and that's the way MIT can differentiate a unique student whom MIT wants out of the regular class toppers. He is the best guy I have ever met and he has guided me a lot. There's nothing wrong baout it.

Please contact me if MIT wants me to further explain on the issue, I'll be glad to help MIT out of this EC mess in anyway. I have mentioned my e-mail id in the e-mail address part.

I have asked many mnay questions from MIT relating to transparency but I have never ever got an answer from your side. I sent e-mails to Matt, Ben even The President but I HAVE RECEIVED NO ANSWER AS OF NOW, and it's pathetic on MIT's part.

@Utkarsh: I'm a busy guy, so my post will be pretty short... There's no point harboring nasty misconceptions about MIT just 'coz you were not selected...

MIT looks for the perfect match as explained on this website and is genuinely *NEED-BLIND*. And remember, no. of awesome applicants >>>>>>> no. of seats.

All the best!

PS - And yeah! I've an Indian Passport.

@Utkarsh:

I don't pretend to know exactly why MIT rejected you, but rest assured that it wasn't your financial situation. I know of several people, all internationals, who got into MIT in the past few years despite asking for 100% financial aid.

You say that you've contacted Matt, Ben, etc. and had no reply. The strange thing is you seem to take their silence as an admission of guilt. Seriously, what sort of answer would satisfy you? MIT's 'need blind' status is well-known. I'm sure that Matt, Ben, etc. would be hesitant to reply to an accusatory letter about transparency, and even if they wrote back to fix your misconceptions, would you believe them? Or would you rather trust your friends and principal who were probably trying to cheer you up?

@Utkarsh:

MIT admits 8% of its incoming class as internationals. Probably the applications alone from India would be sufficient to fill that space. I go to school in Taiwan so I know how incredibly competitive it is for internationals to get into MIT. I have friends who are Olympiad winners at an international level and still get rejected from schools the likes of Caltech and MIT. Yet, there are others that get in with 100% aid, even as internationals (there is one from Taiwan this year).

So don't be discouraged, it's by no means a judgment on your financial ability and accomplishments. Good luck on your future endeavours!

-Chris '11 (oasis)

I don't know what Marilee Jones once did for MIT. whether it was good or bad, i literally don't care, and i don't care for MIT either (not anymore).

but what really makes me wonder is
after "28 years" what's the point of this:
"I have resigned as MIT's Dean of Admissions because very regrettably....etc"
i mean you've already done what you've done.
that's too late!!
o plz what are you trying to fix!!!!

Marilee Jones, excuse me, you are so corrupt.

Do NOT overrate MIT (i'm not saying this because of the news about Marilee Jones) i'm simply telling an advice for all of you who are gonna apply to MIT the next year and the next years. There are lots of good and perfect schools to consider.

btw there is NOTHING wrong with applying to 11 colleges. don't talk about it like it's a punishment when it's just reflective of a diverse and ambitious person trying to make sure that wherever she goes, she's happy.

:)

"transparency and openness" - Message From Ben And Matt
uha, yea openness!
you didn't accept Marilee's resignation quietly.. 'cause u simply can't, we would have known. it's not easy to hide the reasons.
plz stop claiming transparency and openness.
well, could you tell me why you rejected me while you accepted another less competitive applicant you transparent folks???!!
c'mon i believe your decision was so UNfair.

I was about to ruin my life because of MIT and i got rejected. this is so sick
transparent!!? cool

Whooooaaaa!!!! I never thought my blog would attract such attention.Watever.

@ Basant : - Hey hey hey, I am not harboring any nasty misconceptions about MIT just because I wasn't selected. Can't ever think of it. I can't say what you think of me right now, but the arguments I wrote were solely public in nature, I mean this is all about which people say about at my school, at other schools I know and everywhere I have been in Delhi and Mumbai. Iam not saying that I was an awesome applicant, maybe I was an average one, maybe the worst but awesome is what people and my EC believed, I never took it as an issue and wouldn't ever. I know the no. of seats are very less.And I am also a very busy guy too, I too have won many high distinctiopn olympiads and such equivalent competetions, done many things outside class, I took out time to write such a long blog to explain everything to MIT because it concerned me and my fellow country mates.And I didn't realise that I wrote such a long blog untill I submitted it.

@ Tung Shen : - I don''t want a satisfying answer, I was just expecting a response and there is no reason to why I haven't received an answer to my queries. Also, I have never ever developed any misconceptions about MIT.

All you guys out there, it wasnt my opinion it was what my friends and knowns felt about it.And thats the last word.

Watever, this is to all of you at MIT -> One day I will walk in that Infinite Corridor.

Thanks to all and MIT for showing a broader spectrum of life to me, thanks atleast I dreamt of something.Thanks for those who supported me in my quest and in my recent quest to put forth my point. I would love to hear from Oasis , Shen and Basant in the future. Thanks for your support.That's all I have to say.

I am sick of it. HEEEYYYAAA ALLL PEOPLE especially Shen its all misconception that people arouind me where saying it to cheer me up, many students applied from my school, and from Delhi. But everyone since the begining has been saying the same.

Forget all this and lets move forward and work hard in our own ways to rock MIT one day.

Hey Oasis, if you don't believe in college degrees, why the heck are you even here then???

She lied. She got canned.

Maybe society should fully embrace liars and cheaters?

Yeah, that's the way to go -- close all colleges, because Oasis thinks having a degree is overrated.

Hey Oasis, did you lie on your application?

Makes one wonder... hmmmmm

Please. No more sarcastic, spiteful posts. They are redundant and hurtful. Please respect the admissions department as they try to move forward.

Also, if this is kept up they won't bring the other blogs back.

@Anonymous:

I never said I didn't believe in college degrees - I merely stated that a degree is not a necessity in order to help others and advance change. Moreover, I never said that we should embrace liars - I am making the point that there is no point ridiculing or rubbing salt into the wound.

I agree with Kari, this is not the time to make senseless arguments, so I will also stop from commenting further - best wishes to the admission department.

-Chris '11 (oasis)

I love when Anonymous posters say rude things. "Hm I'm going to say this mean thing and then not put my name with it so no one knows who I am" heh heh.

And I think another joke is in order.

So there are 4 friends that had been doing particularly well in their calculus class, and the night before their mid-term they decide against their common sense to go partying on the town instead of staying home and studying. Too bad they have too much of a good time and get home about two hours before the exam, oversleeping the exam terribly. So, they all go into the professor and give him the excuse they think up, "Oh, we were at a good friend's, uh, birthday party, and we got a flat tire and got stuck for a while, so we missed the test." So, the prof. nods and says "Ah, okay, I see that you're being sincere, you can take the exam tomorrow morning." So, the four sigh with relief and arrive at the test the next day right on time. They open to the first page and solve a simple diff eq problem that takes about 10 minutes . Then, the first to finish of the four smiles and opens the test to the next problem, and it says:

"Problem 2 (95 of 100 points): Which tire went flat?"

Ok can everyone stop the useless arguing or I'm going to post more jokes, do that on CC, not on blogs, sillies.

Here's a rather obscure one:

A CD player comes with instructions on how to play a CD.
1. Take CD out of case.
2. Open player, insert CD, close player.
3. Press 'play'.
Question: A CD is already inside the player. how do you play it?

Normal Person: Press 'play'.

Mathematician: Open player, take out CD, close player, put CD back in case. Take CD out of case. Open player, insert CD, close player. Press 'play'.

...
How many people got that?

Ok, here's a true to life calculus story:

So I'm sitting in calculus one day, bored out of my mind, so I get out a container of play-doh to play with. I made integrals and faces and shapes and all sorts of stuff. I'm not sure my teacher cared, she didn't tell me to stop, and it passed the time. Fast forward two or three days. Bored again, and I had a whiteboard marker, so I decide to color on my desk. I drew all sorts of stuff, but when it came time to erase it there were some streaks left that I couldn't get rid of. My calculus teacher complained that the janitors had a hard time getting the marker off.

"But Mrs. Lorenz, it wasn't my fault! The desk had some kind of sticky stuff on it, I couldn't see it until the marker was on the desk."
"Could the sticky stuff perhaps been, I don't know, PLAY-DOH!?"
"Oh"

Good one Snively! Btw, I enjoyed your earlier impassioned argument. Well played, sir.

"So apparently, this world is filled with self-righteous individuals who are beside themselves when it comes to ridiculing people who mess up, and yet ignore the fact that they probably wouldn't have done anything different. Put yourself in Marilee's position - are you honestly going to come out after 28 years of hiding and just say "oops, I screwed up 3 decades ago, please fire me?" Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I wouldn't have lied in the first place.

While I don't agree with those who blame their rejection on Marilee Jones & her policies (come on, she wasn't the only one reading our applications), I think that what she did was wrong. When you are a public figure with a lot of influence, your mistakes don't stay private. You expect to be judged and even criticized. What she did was wrong, and it is only fair that a person who integrity is questionable be asked to resign. And yes Oasis, people who actually have moral values will criticize her.

^ Just wanted to say that I posted the last comment and make a correction....*whose integrity

I simply laugh at the hypocrisy of it all

To Mr. Schmill:
Thank you for a thoughtful and inspiring post. I know how much Marilee meant to everyone in the admissions office, and I'm sure it will be a challenge to get used to her not being there. I wish you blessings in your time as interim director. Hope you'll keep us updated on how everything is going!

To those who would blame Marilee for their rejections:
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the people who are accepted by MIT are accepted because they have the clearheadedness to see that their potential is so great that it doesn't require MIT at all?

Please, take a breath, and see that MIT is merely a blip on the radar when it comes to everything you are capable of. Don't feel you have to blame your rejection on Marilee. Be glad someone else got the chance to go there, and then go make your own destiny with what you do have!

It really disgusts me that MIT has established this amazing way to actually communicate with the Admissions Office and "real live students" (end air-quotes), and yet so many people insist on using it as a forum to air their own dirty laundry about MIT.

Sure, this is the era of Web 2.0, but does that mean we're just going to throw our respect for privacy out the window? This is MIT's ground - MIT's house, as it were. I don't know what your mothers taught you, but mine taught me that you don't disrespect your neighbor in your neighbor's house.

Please, people. It's becoming increasingly apparent that there are two camps of people here, and there are impassioned arguments on both sides...but let me just tell you, we can yell at each other all we want, it won't make any difference. All of us already know all there really is to know about this.

Maybe all of you who are so anti-Marilee or anti-MIT can't see it, but there are real people involved in this, and real people bleed. There are people bleeding right now at MIT, good people, who have been literally cut apart by a ruthless media and vindictive individuals.

For their sake, if nothing else, please...stop.

I may be alone in approaching the issue this way, but I feel my take on the Marilee Jones situation makes good sense.

In her public apology, Ms. Jones said she was "...deeply sorry for this [making false claims on her résumé] and for disappointing so many in the MIT community and beyond" who supported her, believed in her and gave her extraordinary opportunities.

She never mentioned the people most deserving of an apology. Those would be the other candidates for her position who might have had those same opportunities--if Ms. Jones had not won out over them by means of false claims. Ms. Jones left in the dust hard-working people who didn't realize how well deception and lies can pay off--or who listened to their conscience. In a self-serving way, Ms. Jones uses an apology to remind us of how many people she helped, as others might have also done, without lying. This kind of off-target apology gives insight into the thinking of the Marilee Joneses of this world; they don't think about the people whose backs they are stepping on while they reach for success by any means available.

Of the 30-35 students I went to classes with back in high school, 6 went to MIT. I would hate to think of any of them being denied acceptance there--or a job in the future--due to unethical behavior on the part of candidates practicing the "Jones Method." This lady needed help from engineering students in sending her apology in the right direction. She was off 180 degrees. The MIT community paid her well and got good work in return. It's the other candidates who were hurt.

in my country this won't even count as a serious crime. i really didn't think it was going to be an issue of such tremendous proportions. hasn't she resigned? do you guys want blood?
anyway, goes to show that we have a long way to go before we start making an issue over somebody's credentials when her decisions are actually improving the community.

To Snively:

Perhaps you could try telling me in a few words what the MIT "spirit" truly is. Does the page about "the match" on this site draw a good image of it? My interviewer literally told me that the notion of "the match" is "bullshit". And also, I asked earlier why would this be the primary criteria of selection? The only reason I can think of is that MIT thinks these persons would make better scientists, but there are much better criteria for that such as doing independent reasearch and having strong academics. And in my opinion the whole admissions process should be about selecting those who they consider will turn out to be the best scientists or engineers.

And to the international students who have been admitted:

What does MIT really look for in candidates? What do you think allowed you or your friends to be accepted? I think there are really a lot of persons who would be interested to find that out. Are there any characteristics that make admitted students hands-down more deserving to join MIT or is their acceptance based on an entirely subjective assessment?

Thanks.

Hello,

As an MIT alum, this is very disconcerting. A long running deception, that is only deception once it is caught. Then we hear platitudes of how terrible it was and pledges of renewed trust.

This unfortunately isn't just a problem in this case but systemic in the society where one is only a crook once one is caught. Before that, one is a high flying President, Dean, and Stock Broker et.al.

I actually liked Ms. Marilee Jones and had interacted with her only on email. Her contributions to MIT I am sure are noteworthy.

However, it is a clear message that needs to be taught to our younger generation, a message that has been handed down to us for generations and yet is somehow lost in the high-tech modernity du-jour - ends do not justify the means.

Otherwise, all this emphasis on ethics and morality are mainly an emphasis on 'ubermensch' ethics and 'ubermensch' morality - when such morality only kicks in once one has been found out, defeated, or annhilated.

So instead of reaffirming all this talk of trust etc., better to say nothing and hang ones' head in shame for a while.

And while doing so, rethink what MIT is teaching the kids. Not just in admissions process, but across the board in its undergraduate and graduate education. It is an opportunity to emerge even stronger from this setback. And as always, MIT can set the trend in progressive education as it has done in so many other things, including its fantastic opencourseware program. It is to MIT's credit that they did not hush this up but let it publicly be known - for it would have been a rather simple thing to have done.

Thank you.
Zahir

Lets move on, dropping all this... here.

Whoa! Hold on, what's with all the guff from the rejected folks, domestic and int'l. I know what it feels like. I was deferred EA while one of my good friends at my school got in. I don't know what the big deal is. It's obvious that the int'l. acceptance rate is 4% or thereabouts and it doesn't look like it's going to wane anytime soon. So, deal with it. Or just hedge your bets and apply to IIT-Delhi...

Saying "just deal with it" is a little harsh, Kevin - people like you and I are the lucky ones, who beat the odds to get into MIT. It's hard to hear someone who got it telling someone who didn't to "just deal with it."

That said, I believe in the match...but I also know that is not all there is to it. There is no way on earth that just 1,000+ kids each year are "matches" for MIT - of course many more would do very well here. That's why admissions is such a hard job, and that's why I say that I beat the odds. To put it a different way: Do I feel I earned my spot in the class of 2011? Certainly I do! But do I believe I deserve to be here? Absolutely not. But someone else thought I would do well here, and, well, I'm really glad for that.

One final comment. Even if you don't respect the process or the match, please respect the people involved. If you have complaints, and some of what you are saying does sound like a valid cause for concern, e-mail the proper individuals directly (i.e. privately). As I said before, I am sick and tired of people attacking MIT and MIT staff in the midst of one of its most vulnerable and painful moments. I am not trying to silence you - there certainly is a time and a place for the sort of comments you keep posting. But that place is not here and that time is not now.

Why should we be "dropping all this"? I only wish to discuss MIT's admissions principles. I don't know very well how the domestic admissions function, so that's why I'm talking about the interntional ones. And I think my questions are interesting to a lot of persons.

I am only wondering if the idea of accepting according to a "match" notion is truly fair and why MIT admissions have been set up this way. Plus, the idea of the above poster that the international admissions are not done according to the "match" is interesting and makes sense to me. How could the officiers quantifiy the well-suitidness of applicants well enough to objectively select 100 persons out of 2500?

The fact that the admission rate is so low and that I was rejected doesn't make it any less interesting to understand this.

vova:
Here's a small English lesson for you:
persons=>people unless you want to sound pompous.

Bah, c’mon Vov’ give it up. We understand that you’re miffed off, but please go release your anger somewhere else. All you’re doing now is pouring salt in the wound for some, and immensely perturbing others. As for your question to Snively, I’d like to make a response to. “…Try telling me in a few words what the MIT ‘spirit’ truly is…” Honestly, if you have truly read all the information on the website, and read the blogs like a lot of us have, you wouldn’t have to ask this. I’ve been reading the blogs for a good while, and I can truly understand what they are talking about. MIT is about going to school to learn, because you enjoy learning and want to get the best, not just to get a degree or be able to say “Hey, guess where I went to college.” It’s a place where people WANT to change the world, even if they aren’t a 2400 SAT, 36 ACT, 4.0 GPA, and a first place winner for every competition they’ve ever entered. They want people with character, not just people who could spout off any information that you want them to. I know I’d rather have a conversation with someone who had a personality than someone who’d be noting my every grammar flaw as I spoke. I’m also sure I’d like to participate in an extracurricular with someone who’s got a full heart and half a brain than a person constantly noting their own superiority. Also, MIT isn’t just for “Math and Science Forever” people. If you haven’t read it on the website yet, they also have a great arts program too. They don’t want only scientists and mathematicians. They want artists, musicians, actors, and all sorts of people. They want diversity. They also want a class to be small enough so that classmates can actually have a great understanding of each other throughout their diversity. I’ve met people who could look through their high school yearbook and not even know most of their class. Have you ever noticed how everyone here is able to use just their first name and their year? It’s like a community and a family. They grow with each other, and they suffer with each other. Why apply to any college if you didn’t know the risk of not getting accepted? Does that mean that all the ones not admitted aren't the aforementioned people? No, but the admissions committee has to decide who stays and who goes. That's why a job on an Admissions staff is such a hard job to have. I hate to tell you, but any person who knows math should know that 17% doesn’t deal out good odds all the time. You’ll find bad odds at tons of colleges, look around. There are some colleges that admit less, some who admit more. Do you really think a college should admit every single applicant? If you question MIT’s admissions, you should also visit every other college in the world’s admissions page and ask them the same question. Haven’t your parents ever told you that if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it at all? Please find somewhere else to discuss your newfound contempt for MIT, colleges, and their admissions processes, and let’s let MIT move forward as they are trying to do.

Hold on, this is a long post. So long that I wrote it in Microsoft Word for proofing.

This goes out to all of you who wonder about "The Match" *cough*Vova*cough*

I’d say that “The Match” page is a great place to start understanding MIT’s culture. I’m not going to pretend that I know exactly what admissions officers look for, nor should anybody else, because that would just make them angry. I will, however, share with you what I noticed and what clued me in on what makes MIT different and special. Hope this helps you Vova.

Check out this page: http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/pulse/incoming_freshman_class_profile/index.shtml

Any other college would just list the numbers. MIT, however, has a “Just for Fun” section, which tells you something about them. Also, I’ve noticed that there are a lot more int’l students complaining than South Dakota students ;)

IAP. If MIT were simply a petri dish for brilliant minds, there would be no need for a month off, during which students could be complete idiots and do whatever stupid fun stuff they want. IAP fosters creativity, not just the disciplined learning that normal classes drill into students.

Hacks. There’s no correlation between winning international Olympiads and putting police cars on domes. MIT loves hacks (although, has anybody else noticed an increasingly edgy campus police this year?), and wants people in their school that love to push the boundaries of legality in order to impress others. Nobody likes a kid that spends all his time studying!

MIT Museum. Ever seen a collection of amazingly cool things that have very little practical value at all? Welcome to the MIT museum, the coolest place ever! Further proof that MIT isn’t just sheer genius, but is willing to blend art with engineering for nothing more than garnering a smile from a passerby. I’m a fan of the anti-gravity chair and the dancing garden hose.

In talking to recent admits to MIT, I’ve found that very few (probably none) are completely 1-dimensional, do only math, or are strictly contest participants. MIT doesn’t want pure genius, that’s boring! It needs the catalyst of other experiences and activities to spur on genius to greater heights where fantastic ideas lie, and that’s where match comes into play. People say that admitting based on a holistic match is dumb or irresponsible, but MIT can do whatever it wants, it’s a private institution, and who would know better what the institute needs than the institute itself? If you do different activities, are dedicated, and have exciting new ideas (on top of killer SAT scores and grades of course), MIT may take a second look at you. If not, and you are simply good at math, MIT doesn’t need you because they can by a textbook 10 times smarter than you! It’s the skills, personality, and willingness to explore that, in my opinion, makes MIT the greatest college on the planet, but also frustrates applicants who worry too much about meeting a set criteria to get in. Admissions to MIT are not cut and dry, because MIT is not cut and dry. The sooner you understand that nobody is a sure thing and factors other than “I’m good at math” competitions matter, the sooner you’ll develop an understanding of “The Match.”

>>>Vishaque
"More specifically, what they are doing right now"

nothing they are doing nothing, i know a few of mit graduates that are just nothing now. why? because i don't know!!

anyways i'm an international student, Intel ISEF finalist amazing scores, OUTSTANDING achievements in the field i'm interested in, and i got rejected, and i know that MIT (oops) accepted another international student that has never represented her country in any international event.

anyways i'm an international student, Intel ISEF finalist amazing scores, OUTSTANDING achievements in the field i'm interested in, and i got rejected,
=======================
I have the theory of "calculus with infinite varibles", "plasma propulsion" and during my tenure in High School, three professors from Dept of Physics, Resigned.
My EC, sweated and fretted like all hell broke loose, when the interview finished (You can check it Ben.)
=============
Anyway I had not submitted my project reports, since they are very precious, to me, at least.
Currently in University of Aerospace Technology, Moscow. What d ya say... comrade?

I'm surprised I was even waitlisted. With my scores, I should have been rejected.

I know that MIT believes that I can contribute to the institute in some meaningful way.

Its not always about test scores guys.

Awesome Vishaque
I'm going to the university of Manchester, UK. and you know what, it's good thing you didn't submit your project reports.
we're gonna rock because MIT didn't accept us. haha
but I'm still curious that's all.

"And I think another joke is in order.

So there are 4 friends that had been doing particularly well in their calculus class, and the night before their mid-term they decide against their common sense to go partying on the town instead of staying home and studying. Too bad they have too much of a good time and get home about two hours before the exam, oversleeping the exam terribly. So, they all go into the professor and give him the excuse they think up, "Oh, we were at a good friend's, uh, birthday party, and we got a flat tire and got stuck for a while, so we missed the test." So, the prof. nods and says "Ah, okay, I see that you're being sincere, you can take the exam tomorrow morning." So, the four sigh with relief and arrive at the test the next day right on time. They open to the first page and solve a simple diff eq problem that takes about 10 minutes . Then, the first to finish of the four smiles and opens the test to the next problem, and it says:

'Problem 2 (95 of 100 points): Which tire went flat?'"
May 6, 2007 12:07 PM
--------------------
Has anyone CONSIDERED that THIS is why Jones had to give up her position at MIT? Sure, she did a good job, but she lied about a very important matter. Letting her continue at MIT would be like letting the four students take the same kind of test as their classmates.

I like Jon's and Snively's attitude .... keep up the jokes guys.

A university is hiring mathematicians. Three recent graduates are invited for an interview: one has a degree in pure mathematics, another one in applied math, and the third one obtained his B.Sc. in statistics.
All three are asked the same question: "What is one third plus two thirds?"
The pure mathematician: "It's one."
The applied mathematician takes out his pocket calculator, punches in the numbers, and replies: "It's 0.999999999."
The statistician: "What do you want it to be?"

"It is a joke that in the last 10 years, MIT admission office had been headed by a woman who did not even have a college degree. She was not qualifed to do her job. She is a liar. She set very bad examples to the high school students in US.

This woman even took advantage of her title at MIT Admission Office to co-author a book about admission and advertised it on the web site at MIT. It is unthical for this woman to do that. Many parents bough her book because of her title. Now we found out that we were being cheated by this liar. I don't know why MIT would allow this woman to advertise her book on the MIT web site. "

You're the joke. The book doesn't depend on the credentials Marilee had... Nobody buys books because the author had a college degree ......

mr. Schmill, thanks for breaking the silence :) i saw the post when you posted it but i didn't have much to say so i didn't comment.

ok, i think it's about time i join the discussion :D if any of you _really_ wanted to go to mit you could've waited for another year and try again or apply for transfer now if you decided to go elsewhere in the meantime. i'm sure that they didn't reject anyone without a good reason, but mistakes do happen. if you decide to wait for antoher year it would show them that you really wanna go there :) i intend to keep trying until i get in, even if that means i'll be going to college in 10 years :D if you can't think of anything to do in the meantime then you're definitely not MIT material ;) if you really want something you don't give up because you can't get it fast ;)

Guys,

For those of you who are posting nasty comments because you got rejected: GROW UP
As we would say in Africa, "Life is hard". Get over it, move on.
For those of you who have genuine inquiries about the admissions process: there are better times and much better ways to get answers.
RESPECT the people in this admissions office who put so much effort and emotion in to their jobs. Respect is part of what makes MIT "the dream school" for so many.

Have a heart!!... & keep up the good jokes,
I love humor.

Happy Monday folks.

I had to remove some posts for various reasons (expletives, calling out other applicants by name, insulting other posters past our comfort level, posting false information, etc.)

Please keep it civil here. If you want to attack other people, there are plenty of sites that will let you do that.

To those of you posting valuable comments in this thread, thanks so much.

-B

whatever i said, whoever i attacked. i just want you ALL to know that i love you. so don't take it personally..
I love you all as much as i believe that my rejection was unfair. =) huh

the moments we spent here, at the facebook group, at the MIT chatroom, were so unforgettable.

this is absolutely gonna be my very last post

-Amjad

I posted these:
Posted by: Anonymous on May 6, 2007 09:57 AM
Posted by: Anonymous on May 6, 2007 10:13 AM
Posted by: Anonymous on May 7, 2007 01:16 AM
LOVE

Anonymous @ 10:18AM on May 7 -

I've removed your post about the former crew coach's analysis of the admissions process because I don't want it to be picked up and quoted elsewhere on the web. Not sure how you came upon that bad information, but that's not at all how the process happens here.

Why does everyone feel so sorry for this woman? She did have a college degree when she applied for a job at MIT:
http://www-tech.mit.edu/V127/N23/marileeupdate.html
In spite of this, she decided to make up an academic career. It has been stated repeatedly that, if she had not claimed to have a college degree, she never would have been able to become dean of admissions. Now everyone will claim that it was necessary for her to "have" SEVERAL degrees to become dean of admissions. But to tell the truth about her acamadeic record? Who cares about that?

For all those who feel they deserved to get in and were unfairly rejected, it happened that way because it was meant to happen that way. Your "karma" has kept you out of MIT. (For those who do not know, in India destiny is called "karma".) This does not mean you are any less than all others who got in. It does not mean that you will not be more "successful" than those who got in. Given your credentials, you can do well anywhere. It is time to move on and focus on the future.

MIT's metric for selection is "the fit". Since it is a measure that can't be quantified, there will always be some cases where some good candidates may have been overlooked. It is just that their application didn't come through as effectively as it should have been.

From MIT's point of view, the metirc is a success as long as the quality of the undergraduates graduating from MIT does not decline. There is no indication that the qulaity has declined. SO, the metric for admission is a success.

I think this whole Marilee Jones episode has put MIT at the receiving end, and at the other end are the people who've been rejected in the past.

Let me be honest, it did hurt when I came to know that I was rejected by a person who had herself did something so wrong, but then, the moment I thought what Marilee had lost, all my hurt felt illogical. No matter what we say or might think, we all know that Marilee was one person who would've stood up for applicants based on her heart; and we all need that. In a place as competitive as MIT, we desperately need people like her.

Moreover, it is a fact that Marilee lied about her credentials not out of greed, but only because she didn't want to lose MIT, a place that she deeply loved and cared for. It all still makes me think that she could've been forgiven - I'm not saying that all this should've been done behind the scenes, but publicly.

Still I know that doing that must've been rather unfeasible. But I can't help thinking.

Anyways, its sad to see people making most of this time as an opportunity to get back at MIT just because they were rejected. Hey, I was rejected only a few weeks back, but I think an institutes's decision is always correct. After all, the rejection has inspired me to work harder and improve upon myself.

I think this whole Marilee Jones episode has put MIT at the receiving end, and at the other end are the people who've been rejected in the past.

Let me be honest, it did hurt when I came to know that I was rejected by a person who had herself did something so wrong, but then, the moment I thought what Marilee had lost, all my hurt felt illogical. No matter what we say or might think, we all know that Marilee was one person who would've stood up for applicants based on her heart; and we all need that. In a place as competitive as MIT, we desperately need people like her.

Moreover, it is a fact that Marilee lied about her credentials not out of greed, but only because she didn't want to lose MIT, a place that she deeply loved and cared for. It all still makes me think that she could've been forgiven - I'm not saying that all this should've been done behind the scenes, but publicly.

Still I know that doing that must've been rather unfeasible. But I can't help thinking.

Anyways, its sad to see people making most of this time as an opportunity to get back at MIT just because they were rejected. Hey, I was rejected only a few weeks back, but I think an institutes's decision is always correct. After all, the rejection has inspired me to work harder and improve upon myself.

Sorry about that, didn't mean to be harsh Paul. Just trying to express that it is difficult to get in, esp. for int'l. kids and it's sad that there are only so many spots, but that's just the way it is. Even if MIT let in just int'l. kids they'd still have to reject 3 out of 5 applicants, most of which I'm sure are highly qualified. And to Snively, a tip of the cap to you sir. I echo your thoughts that MIT isn't just into kids that do Math Olympiads. Thank God too, the last math olympiad I did was 8 years ago. Lol. But yeah, you're totally right. That's what makes MIT, MIT. The fact that you can talk to somebody about integration by parts and then go to a rock concert that, guess what, they're playing in. Stuff like that totally gets me going. Next year will rock. And as far as those who aren't going to MIT next year. If you were thinking seriously about MIT, I'm sure you got into some excellent institutions, and if you are dead-set on MIT, there is always grad-school. I know that there aren't any words that can truly console you if you got rejected, so I won't try. Just know this, If you were thinking seriously about attending an institution as awesome as MIT, you must have something going for you. I wish you the best of luck in all your endeavors, and you never know, MIT may still be in your future.

Oh and hey, did anyone read the current issue of TIME Magazine's 'Commentary' article by Joe Klein. It's about Marilee and it has a very interesting call to action at the end. I highly recommend checking it out.

Vishaque,

Most of those who apply to MIT are very well qualified academically. Most people have the scores, the GPAs - and many have the competitions. What do you have to show as a human being?

Are we ready for more humor? Ok, this happened in my 3D Solid Modeling class today. There's a really aggravating freshman who WILL NOT SHUT UP, and a friend of mine was at the end of his rope. Finally, in an angry outburst, he yelled. . .

Alt F4 your mouth!

Does anybody know if this is on a t-shirt yet, because it needs to be.

Well Ben, to answer your question, "Not sure how you came upon that bad information..." The information came to me, as I said, directly from the mouth of MIT's previous crew coach, and I hate to think that he was lying to us, but perhaps lying is pervasive on MIT's campus.

Oh, you might not know, but this info has been posted on CC.

Hey Kevin... it was Michael Kinsley's commentary, not Joe Klein's, and I canceled my subscription because TIME and Kinsley advocate against earning a college degree and for lying.

We're a full-pay tuition family and will be paying MIT a QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS (SB degree), and for that kind of money, we expect and demand honesty across all spectrums of MIT, from the athletic department to the admissions department.

By the way, where are Marilee's blogs?

This is all very sickening so I will leave these censored blogs.

Best of luck to all

lol c^ (unless it's been taken away and I'm pointing to my own post now, at which point disgregard)

Some people just need to watch the ending of "Life of Brian" a bit more, in my humble opinion.

Come on guys. Please don't think I am angry or anything. That poster's note saying that I am expressing contempt at MIT is complete nonsense. Obviously he paid no attention to what I wrote and to the questions I asked.

Snively, I was hoping that you would tell me something I don't know about what's the match, but you only confirmed the impression I had from reading the site. Personally, I agree 100% with these values and I hope I can be exactly like that. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it is fair to admit people according to such criteria. When I wrote my posts, I wanted to know some good reason why it is done this way, other than "I would rather like to be with multi-sided people". And I was wondering this strictly out of curiosity, as I am already rejected and our discussion will not change anything.

Anyway, I'm too tired right now to start writing in detail my opinion on this, and I'm not sure anyone here wants to talk about it.

But still thanks for correcting my mistakes; English is not my first language. And as you can see, I don't use "persons" any more :)

Whoa, anon. I agree with Snively. Look on the bright side of life. I, nor Michael Kinsley (sorry for getting the name wrong earlier) ever said anything about advocating dishonesty. And if you're really paying that much, you should totally look at some decent merit scholarships.

Are we ready for more humor? Ok, this happened in my 3D Solid Modeling class today. There's a really aggravating freshman who WILL NOT SHUT UP, and a friend of mine was at the end of his rope. Finally, in an angry outburst, he yelled. . .

Alt F4 your mouth!

Does anybody know if this is on a t-shirt yet, because it needs to be.

Posted by: Snively on May 7, 2007 10:37 PM
------------------------------------------
I bet that you just caused a bunch of people to close the window with this page!

@ Utkarsh :
You said that what I said about Mr. Meattle was wrong. I will now have to tell you about the whole interview process as happened with me to clarify your doubts.
First of all, I asked MIT admissions both on the phone and e-mail whether any technical matter which I am not involved in would be discussed during the interview. Both times, the answer was NO. I was called to Mr. Meattle's place before the interview for a chat. It was then that he told me that I needed to decide what project I would work on at MIT along with the technical part. How do you say that Mr. Meattle is a helpful man when he told me to decide on the exact project of my life(with the knowledge that a Grade 12 student has)along with its Hows and whats? I was scolded badly just because I didnt get my essay written by a professional essay writer. This was the reason HE said he was scolding me, I haven't made it up. This was before the interview. Now MIT said the interview was going to be about me and what I wanted to do at MIT and in life. The interview, though was more of a question-answer round with subjects from Physical Chemistry to Nanotechnologgy to Calculus even though I had told him that my only interest was Electronic Engineering. Now, if it were kept to a minimum level,it would have been ok.But we talked about MY interests for 10 minutes and the other topics for 25 minutes. He never asked me the technical part of Electronics but wanted the entire details of Chemical Kinetics. If he was of such a helpful nature, why did he go into topics he knew I didnt have an interest in? You may argue that I am complaining because I was not admitted. That is not the case, else I would have complained as soon as I learnt about my rejection. But I neede to clarify the interview process because I didn't want to be in same trouble next year when I apply for Transfer Admissions. I didnt complain straight after my interview because I didn't want to anger my EC, thus causing a negative impact on my application. If you still feel to clarify anything, please ask me about it.

People, seriously - please cool it with the overly-antagonistic comments towards other posters. I'll give this thread one more chance, but deleting all of these inappropriate comments is becoming quite tiresome.

That was cool, Ben. Woot! I mean this is the first thing you do in the morning? LOL. Just kidding!

I bet you haven't slept since... ....

Vishaque, please, just drop it. It doesn't even matter if your arguments make sense. Between the sarcasm, the veiled insults, the AIMspeak and the complete lack of respect you come across as an immature runt reveling in his internet anonymity. Talk to someone like that in person and you might find yourself being slapped or roughly shaken. Grow up.

A dyslexic man walks into a bra.

Dyslexia

c.1887, from Ger. dyslex, from Gk. dys- "bad, abnormal, difficult" (see dys-) + lexis "word," from legein "speak" (see lecture). Dyslexic is first recorded 1961.
==================================================

RENOUNCED
==================================================
Main Entry: re·nounce
Pronunciation: ri-'nauns
Function: verb
Inflected Forms: re·nounced; re·nounc·ing
transitive verb 1 : to announce one's abandonment or giving up of a right to or interest in : DISCLAIM 1
2 : to refuse to follow, obey, or recognize any further intransitive verb : to make a renunciation

I'm responding to the various people who have mentioned "the match" and would like to offer my perspective on it.

I am intentionally not giving any information that could be used to identify me because I am an educational counsellor. I cannot speak for other ECs but I will share a few thoughts of what things really inspire me when I talk to students.

I look for genuine passion about something. I actually dont care what. I ask kids to tell me what is important to them, and if they get all worked up about whatever it is, something in me goes "aha.".

I don't ask them about academics because I don't care- the admissions office can evaluate their credentials. I only see a few students every year so I am not well-placed to see if a student is average, above average, whatever.

I try, in the interview, to garner whether the student is "a match" for the MIT culture that I experienced when I was there, and that I see in alums of all ages. It's hard to define but to me, passion and interest in something (doesn't matter what) are a very big part of it. I guess I must be doing OK because some of the students I recommend highly do get in (but never enough it seems to me).

I wonder sometimes when I am 40 years graduated, if I will have to stop being an EC because I will be so out of phase with MIT culture that I won't be a good evaluator of it.

I'm very sorry to hear about the student who got grilled in the interview and scolded. That's disgraceful and to me goes against the entire ethos of how the MIT interviews should be. I try very hard to put the student at ease and always email beforehand to tell them that they won't need to wear a suit, bring a resume or solve problems.

It's not a perfect process but I do honestly try to picture the individual at MIT and think about how they fit in. I used to study AI when I was at MIT and that was all about fitting data to sets of rules. I came out of those classes thinking that sometimes it may not be possible to codify the rules, and you therefore need human input. I think this may be one of those occasions.

But if anyone has a "formula" for "the match", I'd be interested in seeing it.

Here's something I heard once:

A person was applying to grad school, for a second graduate degree, after a gap of six years. At the end of a 20 minute interview, the person was asked about some function in mathematics. While the person remembered the name, had no clue about the answer. So after a few thoughtful moments, said "Sorry, though I know this is a special function in mathematics like .... I don't remember the answer to this specific question now." The interviewer asked, "then how do you expect to succeed here?". The person said, "If you admit me, I can show you that I can succeed." The committee did admit the person who eventually graduated with an almost perfect GPA.

I wouldn't say that the answer got that person in. Probably that confident answer was viewed positively by the committee in the light of all other credentials and qualities. If there had been a "formula" that weighed that question heavily, the reply would have been scored as a "No" with a negative outcome. Collective human judgement seems to have helped in this case. I bet no one reading this can tell what was the exact impact of the answer, unless the reader is one of those interviewers.

Okay,well, hmm..
First off, I was rejected, but I am not angry or anything at MIT (no hard feelings - it's all good :D)
But, when I was applying I think I read somewhere that applications are read by the committee, and then only sent to Marilee for approval, or something like that ..
Anyways, to all the angry rejectees, what's the point of being angry with Marilee, when she didn't make the decision (if my memory's right?)

Now I'm not saying to get mad with Ben or Matt or the admissions committee, because that wouldn't be a good thing either - sometimes things happen beyond comprehension; you can't really assign blame to anyone, because no one is really at fault for anything.
I wouldn't be the first one to say that an admissions department is "wrong" or "mistaken" (I think they know what they're doing), nor do I want to place all the fault and blame on myself (self-deprecation, I think, would only make someone feel worse after rejection) -- I actually do believe in the whole "match" idea ... and in my case, that may have been it .. but who am I to diagnose it? It's one of those thing I'll never know, and that's okay --
I don't know, I would love to attend MIT hopefully for grad school or something - but it's not like that will be the sole purpose of my college experience. I've learned through this that if I stay focused and headstrong in one direction only, I would miss out on some other things..
And once again, these things are beyond comprehension. I actually LOVE the school I'm going to, and couldn't be more thrilled (even if it was MIT). Ironically, when I visited, I felt more at home there than how I felt at MIT's campus. Maybe I'm just not ready for MIT at this stage in my life, who knows? I think that for now, I'm meant to go to Mount Holyoke, and that's that. As for the possibility of MIT for grad school, I'll only be concerned when I'm a senior applying.
And life goes on.

I know this is long-winded, so if I lost readers somewhere, here's the point: Rejectees, get over it! It's no use being angry, because where is that going to get you? Life goes on!!!

Congrats to the MIT '11s, and much thanks to the MIT admissions committee, for all the hard work you guys do - I'm sure you'll all pull through this spectacularly. :D

Its all bullshit! Such discrepancies have going on for the past many years. They are all liars, they have secret internal admission policies which are never made public...Shame on you MIT !

Ben, why are you deleting the threads, isn't it a violation of Freedom of speech ???

"Secret internal admission policies"? Come off it already. When I was applying to colleges I found the MIT admission process the most clearly described of all the others. Even back then. (Cue response of "but you got in, of course you'd say so")

Rant if you want, but you just sound silly phrasing it the way you do.

Anyway, freedom of speech just means you don't get locked up for saying what you want. It doesn't mean that anyone is obliged to publicise what you say if it's not productive to the situation. And attacking other people isn't productive here.

me: The dean of admissions at MIT lied about having a bunch of college degrees.
my friend: That just shows you that you don't really have to be smart to be smart.

Anonymous wrote:
Its all bullshit! Such discrepancies have going on for the past many years. They are all liars, they have secret internal admission policies which are never made public...Shame on you MIT !

This only shows how troubled you are, now that you have been rejected. It shows that you really wanted to get into MIT, but are now attacking it with malice just to get back at the institute.

And given that you really wanted to make it to MIT, it shows that deep inside, you know that MIT is superb. Controversies like these never matter, as they can happen with any institute in the world. But now that you've been rejected, MIT has suddenly become the worst thing in the world.

At least be human and respect others' feelings. Grow up.

"I'm proud to represent a place where truth is the whole point, messy or not. And proud that MIT Admissions is a community of wonderful people who love you guys, who really think about you and care so much that we want to tell you the truth no matter what." -Marilee Jones

Your statements about openness and equal opportunity have as much behind them as the quote above. They are made by people who keep saying she (or anyone else) made the process more "compassionate." Those that set a 10% quota on foreigners, so that being born on a "wrong" patch of soil diminishes one's chances by orders of magnitude, no matter the background. Those saying that an admissions director who lied about all her education beyond high school could in no possible way compromise the admissions process. All of this is stated matter-of-factly, with a straight face - no flinching, shame, or remorse.

Subjective admission decisions made by the likes of Marilee Jones should not affect the course of your future, let alone ruin it. Neither she nor anyone else at that office are qualified for that. The good ting is that in actuality they don't - the better state schools (including mine) award educational and research opportunities similar to those at MIT for a quarter of the price. One just needs to be proactive about fiding them, and be able to ignore anything and anyone that stands in the way. And people in the admissions office shouldn't get the "respect" they do not (in regards to this instance) deserve - after all, the facts are shameful and should be exposed as such.

"I'm proud to represent a place where truth is the whole point, messy or not. And proud that MIT Admissions is a community of wonderful people who love you guys, who really think about you and care so much that we want to tell you the truth no matter what." -Marilee Jones

Your statements about openness and equal opportunity have as much behind them as the quote above. They are made by people who keep saying she (or anyone else) made the process more "compassionate." Those that set a 10% quota on foreigners, so that being born on a "wrong" patch of soil diminishes one's chances by orders of magnitude, no matter the background. Those saying that an admissions director who lied about all her education beyond high school could in no possible way compromise the admissions process. All of this is stated matter-of-factly, with a straight face - no flinching, shame, or remorse.

Subjective admission decisions made by the likes of Marilee Jones should not affect the course of your future, let alone ruin it. Neither she nor anyone else at that office are qualified for that. The good ting is that in actuality they don't - the better state schools (including mine) award educational and research opportunities similar to those at MIT for a quarter of the price. One just needs to be proactive about fiding them, and be able to ignore anything and anyone that stands in the way. And people in the admissions office shouldn't get the "respect" they do not (in regards to this instance) deserve - after all, the facts are shameful and should be exposed as such.

Sorry for the double post above - please delete the second instance

Why should the other people in the admissions office not get the respect they deserve? Are you saying that it's their fault that this happened? How were they supposed to know?

And what is wrong with having a quota on foreigners? I am a foreign student who went to MIT for undergrad. I fully understand that much of MIT funding is from within the US. MIT is a US university. I do not think the US should be obliged to educate everybody who wants to study in it, any more than my country should be.

And yes, not going to MIT is not going to ruin anyone's life. I am fortunate to have got in and been able to attend. However I'm sure I would have got a good education at any of the other places I got into.

Not all actions call for respect. In this case, the problem is with lack of accountability - an admissions office saying that the director who falsified all of her educational background could in no way have compromised the process is not telling the truth, more so given the fact that the decisions are made subjectively. The diatribes about "injecting sanity" by making the process more subjective have as much backing them as Jones' quote in my original post. They might not have known about what happened, but they act in the same way, doing anything to avert a big scandal so they can continue smiling through their teeth, advising prospective applicants to "relax" and "daydream."

MIT's funding comes from a variety of sources, many of them foreign. I would think that "equal opportunity" and "need-blind" policies imply that everyone has the same chance to attend, regardless of whether one's government qualifies as a funding source for the Institute. Not so - they choose to practice a form of discrimination because the current society lets them get away with it, and it will take a while till it is eradicated the same way racism (and racist policies) were in the 60s. I'll do my best to speed things up.

I realize that as a foreigner MIT reject, I can't help but focus on my own problems. I do believe, however, that my picture of the situation is an objective one.

May be some funding comes from foreign sources, but most of it is from US sources. It is not fair to consider foreign applicants at par with US applicants and give away financial aid to foreigners who most probably will qualify for more aid than locals. MIT is a US university. The focus has to be on US students. As most US universities do, it does provide an opportunity for foreign students to enroll. The "equal opportunity" and "need blind" paradigm apply within the quota allocated to foreign stuents. I don't see any discrimination in the policies.

Marilee Jones falsified her resume. That is wrong. There can be no doubt about that.

She should not have been allowed to continue in her position, and she was not allowed to do so. However, that doesn't mean that her ideas were invalid. I see no problem with, *within a pool of qualified applicants*, exercising subjective criteria. There are just so many qualified applicants that you have to pick a subset in some way.

The issue that many will take with my above statement is that people define "qualified" differently. I've read about people who didn't get in who were international olympiad medal winners. I don't know why winning an international olympiad medal is seen as automatic qualification for admission. I went to high school with a few, and some of them just weren't the best matches for MIT. Some didn't even apply because they didn't feel like it was a good fit for them. So if the narrow criteria "won international olympiad medal" were used, they wouldn't provide the best match because the existence of olympiad medal winners who feel they don't fit in at MIT is the counterexample right there.

I'm sorry, but it's just laughable to say that a quota on foreign students is discrimination. The US and its citizens are not obliged to subsidise the entire world's students regardless of how great the non-US students are. US universities do the right thing by admitting a certain percentage of qualified internationals. I have been trying to find some online sources that describe the proportion of US / non-US funding but I cannot, so I have to go by what I remember from when I was there. I remember that they got a lot of finding from the department of defense and other such US organisations. I remember this because I saw a lot of UROPs offered that said, US citizenship required.

Unfortunately, "foreigner MIT reject" (your own words), your picture of the situation is not objective and your believing that it is doesn't make it so.
If you had a billion $ to give MIT with the stipulation that they then remove the quota on internationals, that might just swing the balance enough.

The class is being picked from the entire pool of applicants, not just the "qualified" ones because there's no definition of "qualified." Marilee Jones was not the only one picking, but she played a major role for the worse. A potential (far from worst-case) scenario to illustrate her "legacy:"

"Hey, your HS GPA is 3.12 and your SAT is around the 50th percentile, but you've got a radiating smile and a poignant unverified story in that impeccably written essay. We've got affirmative action quotas (unstated) to fulfill and you're a female non-asian minority so ok, show us what you can do."

Admissions is a zero-sum game - there'd be nothing wrong with accepting this applicant except for the fact that she has taken the place of someone who had perfect SAT, GPA, won a medal, did every-friggin-thing he'd be expected to do to get in. The power granted to the admissions officers is limitless - anyone can be accepted or rejected without justification. This results in correspondingly limitless potential for abuse, and given the director's level of integrity, the office and its decisions should be scrutinized more then they currently have been.

As far as foreigners go, discrimination is there by definition - they don't deny discriminating against foreigners in favor of locals. Some allege that this form of discrimination is "good" as it keeps potential enemy combatants from getting their Urban Planning degrees. I disagree and think that everyone should have an equal chance at a good education - I believe that if you are born in Rwanda you should have as much of a chance to go to a private American college as someone in born in Boston has. UROPs with DoD may be out of reach because DoD can set its own criteria (as other sponsors, including foreign ones, can), but admissions policies at a private (i.e. not subsidized by taxpayers)institute should be separate and not be dictated by the likes of those people. Many institutions (nearly all in the UK) have understood this, which makes them more progressive then MIT.

As far as US universities go, MIT is progressive as it also practices need-blind and all need met admission and financial aid for ALL students, not just domestic ones. That is unusual, and means that qualified international students from poor backgrounds have just the same chance as qualified international students whose family can pay the full tuition. The reason for the quota on international students is that for domestic students, a chunk of the all need met financial aid comes from the US government, but the US government does not provide aid for international students. Instead that money comes straight from MIT. If they were to not have the quota, then it could change the financial aid policies at MIT because it could drain the pool the money is taken from.

As someone said above, if you think that it is unfair, then donate a substantial sum of money to MIT with the stipulation. Just complaining won´t do anything.

Just a thought, but how sincere or rewarding is it to have a liar sign your acceptance//rejection letter?

Oh come on Ben!!! U removed my post when I was the one who wrote the truth here?!!!!! Thats really amazing cuz I thought that you had respected feelings and emotions more than Matt. But as it turns out that I mentioned your pal. You removed it... hmmm. So lemme post it again.

In Pakistan, the ALL internatls, in recent different years, that got accepted to MIT were those who were going to IMO. Now, how do you explain that Ben? How do you explain that? I am a straight A student but I didnt get the chance of even trying for IMO and neither did my friend who is a heck of a mathematician. Just got rejected.

Then why I ask, do you tell people, that everyone of the applicants is given a fair chance and is the application is considered in context?

I firmly believe that MIT assumes that in one country every student gets equal opportunity, but I want you people to reconsider that.

I do not want my post to be removed again so I'll not be that honest and just tell the future international applicants that unless they have something that all of the applicants from their country COULD NOT HAVE HAD, they must not bother to apply unless they are stupid enough to believe in luck.

I must emphasise though Ben that although MIT does try to make the admission process transparent, what they keep in the dark is real thing - facts about those who got accepted. Unless they r released in a way that maintains the applicants privacy, no matter what you have to tell the applicants, the mythical nature of application process will remain a myth and MIT's petty tries to "demystify the application process" is very much in vain.

to "who reads this part?" how can you release records to maintain privacy? Sure, the whole MIT transparency isn't perfect, but face it, it's the most clear of any college/university in the US.

Their tries aren't in vain; I was rejected too, but am I questioning their admissions system? No, because I understood it when I applied, and I knew the odds of admittance were tough. It felt nice, knowing their process of selection, and it gave me a sense of security, knowing that my application would have a thorough reading (unlike the other schools I applied to, whose admissions sections I could only speculate about).

If you didn't have questions when you applied, how could you have questions now, and say objectively that their attempts at transparency are in vain? What I mean is, having no questions beforehand implies that their transparency worked beforehand - that you clearly understood the admissions process.

Ah, well, here I am, rejected by all the 13 American schools I applied to, and I'm still not complaining or speculating about any school's admission process. I still firmly believe that if a school decides to reject an applicant, there has got to be a reason for it, and the reason for my rejection was simply because I was not good enough. I know I need to improve.

Why can't you people realize the same, and move on? Ranting and complaining about an institute is only a waste of time. Improving upon oneself and proving that one can get in is more important.

Stop being a coward and don't complain. Don't take the easy way out.

And stranger is the fact that all these allegations have come exactly after the Marilee episode. Before that, MIT was perfect. In fact, it's perfect till people get their decisions. The moment someone is rejected, MIT becomes the worst institute in the world for them.

How biased can people be about themselves? Is it so hard to admit that you're not good enough? Confidence is ok, but I'd call this as overconfidence, nothing else. And let me tell you, people who fail to see where they themselves have gone wrong are the biggest losers in the world. Their superiority complex keeps them from any form of improvement.

This is really sad indeed.

Barbade Guistan Karne Ko Bas Ek Hi Ulloo Kafi hai
Har Shaakh Pe Ulloo Baita hai; Anjame Gulistan Kya Hoga??

There is only one owl is enough to destroy any garden!!
On every branch, there is an owl sitting, what would be the fate of that garden, O Lord?

Well my dear Theresa, I've no questions to ask. Cuz we all dont know what to ask. Its for MIT to tell us what we dont know about the admission process.

I fully agree with the fact that its the most transparent in US but not good enough to be called transparent at all.

Where are you from by the way?

Mr. Ashesh no one is saying that had I been given a fair chance, I wud have bin accepted. I just want everyone of the applicants to know why they were accpeted or rejected.

Some people are not accepted because there are just too many applicants who were qualified, and they had to pick some somehow. That means using subjective criteria. Having gone to MIT and spent nearly 5 years there I don't recall meeting anyone who struck me as being unqualified. I never met anyone who was so obviously out of their league that I felt they shouldn't have got in. Neither did I meet anyone whom struck me as being a "pity admit".

And with 13000 applicants or whatever it just is not physically possible to give everybody who didn't get in a personal letter saying why.

I can't remember who it was who was saying that only IMO people got in. Has it occurred to you that perhaps these people got in for other reasons than the IMO? Has it occurred to you that perhaps they have a heck of a lot of other things about their application that make it a strong one and IMO just happens to be one of them? Correlation does not equal causation.

Mr. Ashesh no one is saying that had I been given a fair chance, I wud have bin accepted. I just want everyone of the applicants to know why they were accpeted or rejected.

To know why they were accepted or rejected? So, you intend to say that there was some other reason behind an applicant's denial?
See, this kind of behavior only shows that there are some people who're so biased that they can believe that the entire world is wrong, but not them. And to put things rather bluntly, it doesn't get much better than institutes like MIT, etc. So, is it fair to think that the best institutes in the world are 'wrong' but not the denied applicants? Isn't it better to think that there's scope for improvement as far as the applicant is concerned?

I think it's better if people admitted that there actually are areas in which they need to improve, once they get the denial letter. Thinking that the institute was wrong but not them, is plain hypocrisy. And there's no way hypocrisy can be of any good.

And its also clear that some people were waiting for a chance like this to get back at MIT, an institute that had offended their egos by rejecting them. Little do they realize that by applying to an institute, one silently undertakes that he/she considers the institute worthy of applying to.

Its strange to see people changing their opinions so fast.

Have a heart!!... & keep up the good jokes,
I love humor.

Posted by: Meghana on May 7, 2007 10:14 AM

Me Too :)

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Can anyone tell me when MIT will release information about the waiting list?