FIRST

Ha, nice costume. Thanks for the post!

hahaha did you wear that to work?

That year, I did!! (Of course that photo is a couple of years old)... There are other pics built in above... (click on all of the links)...

Dude! Nice costume! Better than mine, I am going to be a robot made of cardboard boxes and paper plates!

Dashing Daniel,
You have come to my rescue many times. Thank you.

I feel that this is slightly misleading. I will most likely be graduating with $50,000+ in debt, as well as quite a few others that I know. To make things clear, I am in the $150k-$175k income bracket, and received no grant money--only federal student loans. The reason why it continues to makes sense to go to MIT is that starting salaries for MIT graduates are usually pretty high, and so the debt could be feasibly paid off within a matter of years after graduating. Either way, the financial aid is great for lower income students, but for middle/upper-middle class, it's still a pretty difficult goal to reach.

It's unreasonable in my opinion to base aid solely on family income. Even though my family income is above $200,000/year, I have three siblings, one in college already as well, and two soon to apply. I'm one of the ones already paying full price, $50,000/ year. My parents' "net" income is effectively much lower already with two kids in college, and now Federal loans are harder to obtain. Why can't MIT, with its $10 billion endowment, make tuition free or at least less for all?

^i agree completely. in my opinion either you give everyone the same amount of aid or give no one aid. that's the only FAIR way to do it.

^i agree completely. in my opinion either you give everyone the same amount of aid or give no one aid. that's the only FAIR way to do it.

I don't think the "all or nothing" thing would work. The "all" would run MIT out of business and detract from innumerable facets that MIT's money actually spreads out to, and the "nothing" would... well.

Your argument is similar to saying, "tax everyone at a flat rate or tax no one with the progressive; After all, America is trillions of dollars..." (But then again, that's left to opinion, and I understand where your logic is coming from.)

I mostly disagree with you because if MIT didn't pay for my tuition, my family, which makes less than $30,000 couldn't afford to even send me to Boston. Heck, going to a state school would run us out of business.

^it's funny you should mention the tax analogy because i disagree with the progressive income tax as well. in my opinion it punishes people for being successful and is a form of socialism. however, i do feel sympathy for people in your situation in which you really need the financial aid to afford the tuition. i just think that it's a little unfair unless you give everyone the same aid. idk it's really an ethical dilemma i guess.

The schools with large endowments (MIT was recently ranked tenth, with $10 billion) can all afford to make tuition free, and will have plenty of money left over! They also keep raising more money each year.The argument recently made as to why wealthy schools won't do this is based on the idea that it's not fair not to ask wealthy families to pay their fair share. That's the only argument made! What's wealthy nowadays? Obama apparently defines rich as $250,000/year income. MIT apprently feels it's $75,000/year. Harvard, $180,000; Yale $200,000. I've yet to hear a logical, compelling reason. The above poster certainly deserves to receive aid, but so do others with greater family incomes, if their family circumstances are impacted by paying $50,000/year (but this is judged by the finaid officer, not the family).

Hi, poor girl again.

Wait--did MIT financial aid ever say they based "aid solely on family income?" I think not. Let's hope not.

Dudes, I definitely think that if you are making above $200,000 or $150,000 or $100,000 or whatever arbitrary amount, you can still qualify for substantial aid. If you have other siblings in college, if you have dependents living at home, if your parent's business/firm is suffering from the economy, you probably need it just as much as I do. And schools like MIT, with its 10 billion-dollar-that's-nine-zeros endowment, have money for that reason. I don't think anyone wants to make you or your family suffer for education.*

MIT and Mr. Daniel Barkowitz, I think, read financial aid fairly, am I right? They do not have a pile of apps which they look at and go, "Look at those fat cats! We ain't givin' 'em a wheat penneh.**"

Still, I have to disagree with the "all or nothing" proposal. Yes, it could work where every student gets free tuition, but demanding that MIT do that right now is unreasonable. And if the demand to do so is based off the fact that a kid like me could possibly get a free ride? No. Yet, keep in mind what I said above.

*I don't speak for MIT financial aid. :/
*Not actual quote from Daniel Barkowitz.

FIRST!

@Daniel

I am an international applicant for the class of 2013. How badly will Aid be affected for students like me, in the wake of the global credit crunch?

I am one of the people coming from a higher income family, and I'm very worried that need-based financial aid is going to amount to pretty much nothing for me. Even higher-income families can't necessarily afford to fork over $50,000 a year, depending on their situations. It's true that not everyone has to pay the "sticker price," but many MIT alumni from the area around me tell me that they did indeed end up paying full price. :/ 64% had some kind of a grant, but that means that 36% paid full price (unless they had personal merit scholarships), right?

That's not to say that the financial aid office doesn't do a great job helping those who really need it-- but attention needs to be given to those who, on the surface, seem to not need the money but in reality do need it.

Prospectives, keep in mind that MIT will tell you and tell you and tell you about their great financial aid policies, blah blah blah, but in the end financial aid seems to be based entirely off of the FAFSA expected family contribution, which takes into account not only how much your family makes annually, but how much you have in savings as well-- a family that buys new cars every few years and has a huge house can actually have a lower EFC than a family that earns the same amount but puts the money into savings instead of buying things.

Unfortunately, "savings" also applies to money that wasn't originally intended to end up in MIT's coffers; for example, money your parents have been setting aside for their retirement, or the money set aside for your sibling's college education. (By the way, if you have a sibling who will not be in college at the same time as you, the cost of that sibling's college education will not be taken into account in financial aid decisions.) Because of the "savings" loophole, my EFC is considerably higher than the amount my father earns in a year, which most certainly puts a financial strain on my family. (Seriously, how can > $50000 a year not put a financial strain on any family? How can MIT possibly justify charging this much in the first place?)

Ultimately, past all the advertising about financial aid and the dubiously high numbers, if you belong to an upper-middle class family, MIT will end up costing you SIGNIFICANTLY more than if you choose to attend a state school. For me, it was an order of magnitude. The "financial aid" I was offered turned out to be money I am expected to earn working on campus. Am I included in the percentage of "upper bracket families receiving financial aid"? Quite possibly. Did I appeal my financial aid decision? You bet. Did I find it nearly impossible to get in touch with a financial aid officer at MIT (calling 3-4 times a day for a week, with no return calls despite the messages I left on their voicemail), only to be told, "tough cookies"? Guess. Thus it is that I will be taking out tens of thousands in loans while students from lower income families will be walking out of MIT free from debt.

Conclusion: Don't expect financial aid miracles to happen, no matter what finaid tells you. The cost of going to your dream school will most likely be a backbreaking burden of debt when you leave. Life isn't fair. Sorry.

The end.

I wants the money.
*MIT gives HERMAN monies.

I agree with a lot of what's being said. My parents make above 200K a year but, my brother is already in college (@ mit) so that's around 40K down the drain. Luckily he got a great merit scholarship from NASA which accounts for the 10K drop.
Now I'm going to be in college which will be another 40K (if I get lucky) not to mention the fact I have two sisters who are in a private school (another 40K down the drain). My parents pay over a THIRD of their income for education, a third goes to the government and then there's a third left for food and shelter.
Now, I'm not whining, but it'd be nice to get a little break from the university especially since my college fund which is in the stock market :( is taking its last dying gasp.

To Ananymous,

You sound like a spoiled kid. Why don't you try to get admission from MIT first before whining !

First, I believe it's spelled anonymous, but perhaps that's just me.

Second, my posts says, "Now I'm going to be in college" NOT "now I'm going to be at MIT". I was saying that wherever I go, it is going to cost around 40 - 50 thousand a year, and I will most likely NOT receive aid.

Third, what was the point of insulting the people writing on this thread just because we are discussing the problems with our financial situations and attending college. It was simply uncalled for. Being rich does not make you a spoiled kid, discussing is not whining, and you know nothing about the specifics of my situation or anybody else's situation. If you're representative of the mental level present at MIT, then I guess it's just like Alex Doonsebury said, "too easy."

also perhaps you should read this http://xkcd.com/438/

No one says you have to attend MIT, if you dont want to spend the money, then go elsewhere, it is a free country. Stop whining and either get out there and apply for other scholarships or go to school somewhere else, no one is making you attend MIT

For EA, why are the financial aid documents due Feb 15th, 2009? Is it possible to get a financial aid estimate in December, when the yes/no decision for admission is made? Wouldn't all accepted students want to know how much it would cost if they accept early?

Another issue: The web page for financial aid still refers to the 2008-9 school year. It seems to me that it hasn't been updated for the current prospective students.

i want to join mit in the year 2010 what should i do

@ Fred & Just Me

I think, everybody can see the quality of your responses, compared to that of your respondents'. Including your professors (if they've any time left after thier grad classes). I, personally don't know about your strengths in science curricula, but you indeed have a very bad education in liberal arts.

We are also in the so-called upper middle range because of our frugal lifestyle and savings for retirement (as we are older parents). My student is NOT at MIT because our aid offer was tiny, and even after it was "doubled" when we requested a review, our EFC was more than twice that of Harvard's and nearly twice that of Stanford's. It still breaks my heart, but I'm relieved now that we're paying much less at another excellent institution. I do hope MIT changes its policy before our next child applies. Our student really wanted to attend MIT.

To take a breather from the serious discussion,

this dude resembles Brad Garrett or Robert from the TV show 'EverybodyLovesRaymond'

#@!&

I find the alt-text on that xkcd to be very true

So time for me to jump back in the fray again.

Let me address these comments as they came so I can respond to them individually.

First, Will D., the point of my post was to explain the reach of financial aid. Your case, clearly, was one of the $150K-$175K who did not qualify for grant. This is because our financial aid awarding policies are not based strictly on income, but rather take into account many factors (assets, number in the family, number in college, state of residence, medical expenses, etc). In your case, it seems like you decided that the expense justifies the end result, and I understand your rationale. But I would disagree with your conclusion about financial aid reach.

Anonymous (from 10/31 at 5:39), several items I want to correct from your assumptions. First, keep in mind that we make decisions about financial aid based on a lot of factors, income only being one of them. If you want a more detailed explanation, see elsewhere in my blog for how we determine your family contribution. As for the endowment, we do not have $10B dedicated to financial aid from the endowment. Our endowment amount is closer to $1B (in other words, about $1B of the endowment is dedicated to funding financial aid) and the annual earnings on that $1B provide for the majority of what we spend each year in financial aid (this year over $74M). If you can find an investment that provides greater than a 7% annual rate of return, let me know... And, if we were to take that $74M and divide it equally among the (roughly) 4100 undergraduates, that would reduce everyone's tuition by about $17,900. Nice, maybe, for some, but that would mean that we would have NO MORE grant money for students who couldn't afford the reduced tuition (and their room and board). In short, we would be making college less affordable for all under that scenario.

Anonymous 2 (from 10/31 7:06PM) -- see above...

And another Anonymous (this one from 10/31 at 9:46), please see the discussion above. I disagree that we define "rich" as $75,000. We have a program that provides financial aid to many families at many income levels (hence the reason for my post). No one at MIT has ever said that we have an artificial cut-off for financial aid at $75,000. And my post above shows the reach of financial aid goes MUCH higher than $75K. Your concept of making tuition free misses the point that I raised above - first, that not all of the endowment is for financial aid, and second, that simply dividing financial aid evenly would be fair to no one. As another thought, the only way to make tuition free would be to have a financial aid endowment large enough to provide annual earnings to offset tuition. At a 7% annualized rate of return, do you know how much money that would be? The answer is $2 billion or roughly double what we have now. And this wouldn't cover room and board and other expenses. To do this, we would need $3B. I determined this by taking this years tuition and fees ($36,390) and multiplying this by the current number of students (4,125) and dividing by a rate of return of 7%. And you wonder why we are trying to raise more money?

30000, I would never call anyone a "fat cat". Escept maybe for my childhood pet, who really was a fat cat.

Tree, no worries, our aid program will continue even in these tough economic times!

Anon (Nov 1 6:06PM), I would still apply for aid if you think you will need it. Remember that we do look at each situation separately and individually, and we understand that most families cannot afford to write a check for $50,000. That is why we have a whole host of grant, loan and work programs to help families finance the cost of their education.

Slightly bitter, I understand that you speak for your personal situation, but that means that you should not be generalizing that everyone else will have the same experience you did. I am happy to take a look personally at your situation if you like, but it sounds to me as though you have reached what you see as an impaase with us. In your case, I can understand that the "net price" is more than that of a state school, but your experience is, I would venture to say, not the norm. I also would like to speak with you so I can understand why there was a delay in responding to your appeal; this is not our typical response time. Please be in touch with me by email so we can arrange to meet.

Anonymous from 11/2 at 12:46AM -- most of these are education expenses you identify in your post so chances are they will be taken into account when we (or anyone else) reviews your application for financial aid.

Paula, since our EA process is not binding, we do not offer early financial aid awards. We do hope to have our calculator online in November so you can do your own estimate... And we are aware of the web page and are editing it now. Expect it to change this week.

Ashirwad, you may want to read Matt McGann's admissions blog!

V. did you post on the wrong blog?

Bitter mother, I am sorry that MIT didn't work out for your family. As you are undoubtedly aware, our aid policies are not the same as those of other institutions, and we are unable to provide "matching" aid awards. We do examine our policies each year, and I am glad that your student ended up at an excellent institution.

OK think I am done...

--Daniel

Thanks for your reply. Why not a middle ground; why not allocate a percentage, say 50%, of the earnings on the $1 billion so annual tuition for all could be decreased $8000-10000/year? Then you'd be using the endowment to benefit all undergraduates, and still have a significant amount of money (over $35 million) available to support the "less than $75000" initiative?

Interesting idea, but it still doesn't work. First of all, it is true that $10,000 per student would spend about $45M from the $74M that we had to spend this year, but the remaining $30M wouldn't cover the amount needed to help those who need the entire amount covered.

Let me give you an example (and make it simpler):

Let's say that we have 10 students and the cost for each is $50,000 and that I have $150,000 to spend to cover all of their financial aid.

Of these ten people, I do the analysis and they need the following:

Student A needs full funding (they have no money to spend for education) so I need to give them $50,000.

Students B and C need significant funding so I give them $35,000 each.

Student D needs $15,000 of support.

And Student E and F need $7,500 each.

In this scenario the other four students (G - J) need nothing (based on my analysis).

Now under the original proposal by anonymous from way up there somewhere (by the way, can we pick a name that is something different than anonymous; otherwise it gets hard to tell you apart) I would just give the $150,000 evenly to all, so $15,000 to each student. This means that students A, B and C would not be able to afford the costs of education since their need is so much greater than the $15,000 and they would not be able to attend.

In your proposal, anonymous (from 11/3 at 3:12pm), we would have the same problem. Say I took $50,000 and divided it evenly to all ($5,000 apiece). I would then have $100,000 left, but I would not be able to award money to students A, B and C (their combined need is $120,000 and less the $15,000 I have already awarded them, I would be $5,000 overspent), plus I am now not able to help out students D, E and F at the level that they need help.

So, it really is a zero-sum game. Any money I award to the masses reduces the amount of money to award based on need.

And please remember that the financial aid we award goes WAY beyond the "less than 75K initiative". We have grant based funding that extends to families with incomes much higher than $75K and a flat "discount" as you propose would actually be a reduction in aid to many of these families.

Thanks for your consideration and comments!

I'm in a similar situation as the one who posted this question in your entry dated October 22, 2008. I'm really interested in your response to his/her question, Dan.

"My daughter is applying to MIT and we are hoping she gets in as MIT is her dream. We had a business a few years ago that we had to shut down forcing us into personal bankruptcy. Even though our income is fine now ($160K), we have significant debts to pay off from the business and are limited in our capacity to acquire loans (home equity or otherwise) due to our credit scores. Can you tell me if MIT would take these circumstances into account when deciding on financial aid. Thanks very much. Posted by: Anonymous on October 26, 2008 01:28 PM"

Thanks for the reply Daniel.

On the bankruptcy question, we will look at the particular income situation of the family based on where they are (first) for the 2008 calendar / income year and then (on appeal) for the 2009 calendar year if the current year is dramatically different than the previous year.

As for parent loans, bankruptcy is considered a fresh start, so credit companies (or namely, the Federal PLUS Loans) cannot discriminate on the basis of previous bankruptcy.

We will work with you on your case individually since each case is unique.

Hi Daniel -

I did the FinAid calculator estimate, and my family's EFC is over $100k. I guess we won't expect financial aid, and I support merit based scholarships (like GA Tech's Presidential Scholarshop?) don't happen at MIT?

thanks,

inquiring_mom

Hi

Somebody knows where can I find the fees of the master program in Political Science.

Thanks

Erick

Hi

Somebody knows where can I find the fees of the master program in Political Science.

Thanks

Erick