I really appreciate this entry, I have been a bit worried as of recent...(More on this towards the end of the comment)I do what I love to do. No, I did not take AP World History or AP Chinese language and culture I am taking what I love, not what I need to get into college. I am taking APs because there are no challenging non AP Courses or even anything with new material. (At the risk of sounding arrogant the AP courses being challenging is entirely debatable but eh, I certainly enjoy them more than normal courses). Following the same theme I am applying to MIT a year early (Three years really, having skipped two other grades), because I have exhausted my opportunities doing what I love to do and applying to MIT seems like the best thing to do at this point to continue ...doing what I love at the risk of sounding horribly clichˆ©d; it is the next ’Äúlogical step’Äù.

As I mentioned I have been 'worried' recently about...how my application will appear compared to...Laura words it really well in her blog

Laura Wrote:

In fact, all those threads on college confidential where everyone says

’Äúhey I have a 1600, 4.0, class president, math team president, Intel winner [whatever that is], and I’Äôve worked as an intern for IBM since I was 7 but I only got a 760 on the Physics SAT II do you think I still have a chance?" or when you see people who are President of X club, and the president of the polar opposite as well. I guess that is just not me, I love Math (I promise I wont ramble on for ages about mathematics as its not appropriate for this entry’Ķapparently on my Interview report the words ’ÄúMathematical Fetishm’Äù are used), and to a lesser extent I love most "pure sciences", I do enjoy say English, or Latin to an again lesser extent...but I do not feel the need to become President of the Latin club to "increase my credibility" on a college application. It is very comforting to me that MIT shares a similar philosophy. On a highly coincidental note, I was actually planning on calling admissions tonight and asking questions similar to some of the concepts addressed in this entry. As usual, I apologize for the less than perfect grammar, and again I appreciate this entry a lot.

-Robb Carr

Ben - this is a wonderful post, both here and on CC. Thanks for all of the thoughtfulness you put into it.

I am just adding on a bit to my reply here...I am not implying in any way that taking many AP courses is a bad thing at all, I have more aps than normal courses this year. However I am taking those APs because they are enjoyable to me. What I was pointing out / agreeing with is that taking AP courses in subjects one is not intrested in or a course one will not enjoy merely for the sake of adding credential to a college application is counter productive. Just clearing up any possible confusion

If you're taking a lot of AP classes because you love it, then you really shouldn't have anything to worry about. Your rec letters should show that. This is especially important for students who have a wide variety of interests. For instance, students who've taken all the science APs and yet have taken multiple languages AP, or something like Art History AP. If you really did it because you love it, it *will* shine through in your application.

Yeah, it's that kind of implicit message of confidence that one sends out when he or she says, "I'm doing all of this simply because I love it." It eliminates one's display of insecurity of being bombarded by the practicalities of life; it shines straight through to everybody, that one lives with passion and strives to improve himself; it makes you radiate with confidence and vigour (thankfully, it doesn't have a half-life =P).

Now that I've just read Anthony's story, I realize what a genius he is. Gee... way to go man!

And Ben, thanks for this post! It's not a *comforting* entry, so to speak; instead, I think it gives credit to the Admissions officers, not only of MIT but of almost every university, that probably would have been plagued with calls from anxious parents hoping for their child to enter a top university.

Anthony’Äôs story was very interesting!

Eric: I thought it was "comforting" in the way that it reaffirms what MIT is looking for...even if that is certainly not the only message in the post. I just appreciate that MIT is looking past paper credentials. It says a lot for MIT Admissions and the philosophy of MIT as a whole.

I touched on a similar subject in Mr. McGann’Äôs blog four days ago, though it was not directly related to MIT admissions. (http://matt.mitblogs.com/archives/2005/10/quick_update.html scroll down towards the bottom ’ÄúOn a side note something I did not mention earlier in regards to the site...I am not a huge fan of the ’ÄòLearn all these neat little tricks and’Äô’Äù begins the comment). This is not the main point of the entry but it certainly appears to be contained in it.

Robb, I agree with you on that point. Hmm... maybe it's just the environment I see around me... in Singapore, the emphasis is placed on numbers, numbers, and more numbers. Or perhaps letters, for that matter (grades, yea?). The entire system here functions on numbers - PSLE scores determine which secondary school you can go to; O level grades (and hence numbers) determine which Junior College you enter; A level grades determine which course you enter in a local university; and your scores on your university tests determine whether you get 1st, 2nd or 3rd class honors in your degree.

That's probably why some people would find it *comforting* that MIT looks beyond paper credntials - because they have this insecurity about their academic performance - but I'd beg to differ. It's not that I like to emphasize my own credentials; in perspective, they're not *the* most impressive to look at. I just feel that we all should live by setting our own standards, and that would take a lot of inner soul searching to find out who we really are. For MIT to look at the whole person gives credit to that person and MIT, for in this way, the applicant knows him/herself, and MIT respects the applicant for being him/herself. Like I said, it's about self-confidence, and only that will help your personality to shine through, and that's what I believe in, for I believe that it's more important in life, than testing results.

I believe that it would do good for any applicant to reciprocate the respect given to the college by being him/herself too. After all, since college admissions is about the match, college admission officers wouldn't want to read dolled-up profiles of a poor candidate, right? That would only serve to hinder their perspective of the applicant, and that can only aid in creating a mismatch, rather than finding a true match. Ben is right, coz some people won't be able to survive in a top-notch college, even if they top their graduating class. (Just read Anthony's entry... it's full of insightful views.)

I guess when it comes to the word "comforting", we each had our own interpretations. But I fully agree with your views Robb.

’Ä¢ That’Äôs a good way to look at it, though I am not insecure about my "academic performance" I just know I do not have the same amount of paper credentials as other people...it is not insecurity though I do not think. For example, my field of interest is Number Theory, arguably the greatest Mathematician ever and by far the most prolific (Leonhard Euler) did not have his first big idea until he was 28. It is a lot more difficult to make a great study and have it published in number theory, than say Biology (I am not degrading biology in any way, or saying it is not a wonderful science). I had a bunch written on this but when I previewed it it took up a page and a half at 1280x1024 resolution so I decided I went a bit overboard. The general idea is, right I may not have a lot of significant results in my field of interest, I mean I have rediscovered/proven alot of old theorems for the fun of it (or not realizing it had already been done!) and I am currently working on my first conjecture which I know to not have been done involving the composition of primes, prime gaps, and the composition of numbers in general. (I verified it on my computer up to the 10,000th prime, and proved it for infinitely MANY cases...but not all...) but anyway it would be a significant idea I could get it published. However publishing a mathematical conjecture with nothing more than experimental evidence is frowned upon and I prefer to establish a proof for personal reasons (Mostly curiosity). However in many fields experimental evidence, and some heuristic evidence (I am making a small distinction here), is more than enough for it to be accepted by the mainstream community (This is one of the things that makes mathematics so beautiful to me). I am glad with the fact that MIT is looking for someone with "genuine passion" rather than three research awards at the age of fourteen.

I agree self-confidence is very important. On the comments about the environment, that is a very different environment Eric (and an intresting one as I knew next to nothing about the education system in Singapore, Wikipedia time) I recently started online school and there’Äôs a rather large difference in the focus, and "environment" (despite being online it creates an environment of sorts).

-Robb Carr

Just quickly adding on here...

"I am glad with the fact that MIT is looking for someone with "genuine passion" rather than three research awards at the age of fourteen."

This has of course been stated before...Ben just did a very good job saying it.

You all have to realize, however, that three research awards at the age of fourteen is (typically) a very good indication of passion.

Again, it's not the only (or even the best) measure of passion, but it definitely says something.

In the end, if you have passion, it will show through.

great post Ben!

I totally agree with you on the last line,

"More often than not, what society deems "the best" is not actually the best for most"..

P.S. congratulations on the MIT's Professor Robert Schrock's Chem Nobel Prize! Its great for everyone at MIT,

Hi Ben,

An enlightening post I must say. Frankly I did have some idea about the things you just said. But see I also want you to know one thing.

A child never wants to do what he does not like (being a teenager myself i can speak on this).

But take my scenario:

I am good in computer programming (well pardon any flamboyancy) but I dont like to do Chemistry (I mean I am not bad at it but I am not the straight A's kind of a guy and have one two A- and B's). Now I have enough grades, Achievements in computers to show to MIT and I have an idea that MIT admits people on basis of their passion (I mean thats what MIT says so I believe it). But when I see the list of admits I get that insecurity because its everyone with 800 SATII and high SATI and AP's and olympiads and what not so this is the reason why I'll try to be deliberately good in chemistry also so that I dont "lack" anywhere. And I am not saying that its MIT's fault that the admits have great records coz as you say " Most of our admits have taken AP math and science because they would have been bored silly in the regular classes" so basically even though a boy like me knows that he has done his part by doing well in computers and Maths and other subjects he still feels that insecurity and goes for that extra Chem AP which he does not want to take. So my point is that Human Nature is such that we always have a feeling of insecurity (I mean I know the world does not end if I don't get to MIT..but I also know that I would be well off there than any other college where I can do my computer Engg and then at this point I'll say to myself "why are you letting this one stupid chemistry exam be a possible cause for your rejection")So you see many times the case is that a child is not "taking an AP he does not like" just to get the trophy i.e. MIT but he takes that AP so that he does not lose the place he really wants to go to and where he can develop his talents and be challenged.

Yet, I really appreciate the MIT admission staffs efforts to make the application process simpler and transparent and I really liked that you frankly disclosed that MIT indeed is above numbers(although some rigor is required..and that is righteous) and now I can get on with a serene application process for fall 2006.

I dont know if it'll get to you but still this is my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

I dont know if it'll(means if you'll come across the message) get to you but still this is my 2 cents

Absolutely loved the post and the comments here.

A lot of students come up to me and ask me "what do you think about X AP or Y AP" (our school offers probably 16ish or more and I always tell them, "it's only worth it if you like the class." We seem to have our own "in-school" peer pressure here because there are people who are taking 1 or 2 APs and scoffed at while there are others who will graduate with 14 or 15 APs and looked up to. But in the end, I am still living my own life and only I can deal with the courseload I choose.

Personally, I feel we should get the best out of our high school education. It's free and there are so many opportunities waiting to find a person who takes their own initiative. I feel I got the most out of my high school education without going crazy and I'm proud of it -- i've slipped a few times, perhaps gotten stressed and pulled several all-nighters (god forbid...) but I don't regret what I've done. In the end, that's all that matters. It's not about the college you went to or the classes you took, it's about the person you are. Go where you feel you will be happy and the rest will follow.

[i went off on a bit of a tanget, guess i couldn't help it. this is a topic that i feel strongly about. i would have gone on for a few more pages if i could have]

I just had an idea. Timur is right too, because if a student takes some advanced courses which he or she has absolutely no interest in, it'll probably be reflected in how well he or she does that course. So why bother to take those APs if they don't interest you?

Fantastic post!

"When faced with the choice, we will always choose "the right match*" over numbers. We're not lying when we say that. You've heard me beat that sentiment to death in other threads, so I won't do so here."->

These lines in particular make me feel slightly more comfortable, because then I know that admission officials, like you, are looking at more than scores and yes I have read about this on CC. :)

Phew! Now I don't have to go insane if I don't get a 2400 on the SAT's, due to not having a 4.0 GPA or for overthrowing the Theory of Relativity or for being able to kick a football far or something like that.

Hey Ben, love the post. I was at your info session in East Brunswick (which was really great by the way... probably the most realistic one I've seen), and I finally got around to seeing your blog. I couldn't agree with you more. AP Euro and AP Spanish just isn't for me, haha. Well goodbye now. Hopefully I'll see you in a year. I also love Shikhar's post. Right on man! Don't worry about it. My AP US History exam didn't go as well as I would have liked. My main strength lies in Physics, as yours does in computer programming. I'm sure that an imperfection in another class won't break your chances.

I am an engineering professor at the University of Arkansas - Fort Smith. My advisor in graduate school went to MIT and I interacted with several students from MIT. You mentioned that MIT is not the right school for many people and I would definately agree with this statement. My impressions of the school is that (at least in engineering) it is "sink or swim" where students get very little help from professors. Professors at MIT have little time to teach given their massive research demands. Unfortunately this is getting to be the trend at many large research universities.

I believe the best enviroment for undergraduate learning is a place where teaching students is the focus. And I constantly advise students to look at smaller schools where teaching is the focus, instead of large research institutions. From my experience with both worlds I can say that undergrads would be better served in this enviroment.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your comment! I agree with you in general, although I wouldn't lump MIT into the category of schools with little access to profs. My experience at MIT has been quite different - in talking with professors they generally seem to enjoy teaching more than any other part of their job. All of our classes are taught by profs (not grad students) and students are always telling me of the great expeirences they have with their profs outside of class.

Perhaps some of our current students will chime in here...

I really like this entry because so many people come up to me and they are like, "Why are you taking only one A.P. class this year?" I'm like, well, I'm still struggling in that ONE A.P. class and if I had any more, I'd likely burn out. I know I'm not Ivy League material or anything, but I've been way over my head for the past 4 years and now, I know what I can and can't handle. To me it shows more responsibility and maturity to acknowledge your weaknesses than to mask your strengths. It doesn't matter what brand name college you go to because if you're unhappy, depressed, or struggling, what's the point?

My $o.o2

Hi!!! I just need a help.There was a mistake with my application fee because the fee waiver was selected by mistake,I realized that I was not eligible for fee waiver.I didn´t know how to solve it so I created another account on MYMIT and then I paid the application fee with a credit card.The problem is that the SAT SCORE has been received in the oldest account.How can I solve this problem??

PLEASEEEEE

mercedes_bf@hotmail.com

Hello,

Nice post Ben. Can you tell me from what in the application the adcoms can see my passion? T.T

Probably the essay? but what if my writing isn't eloquent enough to express it...

I got linked to here from somewhere else but I just wanted to comment your AP comment.

-----------------------

Based on the thousands of apps I saw last year both in selection committee and as a reader, I can tell you that the average # of AP's for admitted kids was 5 or 6 (that's total for all 4 years of HS - i.e. 1-2 per year if evenly distributed). Many admits (most likely the majority) had no college classes. The most common AP's taken were in math and science (no surprise, it's MIT). The overwhelming majority got 4's and 5's on all tests.

I'll pause here to add that I frequently saw kids with perfect SAT scores and perfect grades and a gazillion AP classes get rejected. Why? Because often these kids knew how to grind, but brought nothing else to the table. And that's not who we're looking for at MIT. We admit kids who show genuine passion. Sure AP's can be one of many passion indicators - but I emphasize one of many.

-----------------------------------

I must say that I disagree with what you said Ben, not because APs are the best thing since sliced bread (heck no), but I would interject that the true tragedy lies in the value and double standards with which colleges place on students. Allow me to clarify since that statement on itself is overly belligerent.

Throughout grade school I have demonstrated strong proficiency's in both math and science. I never have a problem with those classes (and still don’Äôt). Yet my true challenge came in tackling those courses I was not good in : English, history, foreign language.

Even when I entered High School I was one of the lower achieving students in those areas. Yet in my second year I took the first available AP History course. BECUASE it was hard. Yet that brings us to an interesting dilemma.

By the time I finished sophomore year I had also received an A in Spanish (the level before AP). But I decided to not pursue it. Why? Because I didn’Äôt like it? No, because I was afraid how COLLEGES would look at it.

As much as colleges value personal human experience there is an ESSENTIAL need to learn to EXPAND your realm of experience. In many ways that’Äôs what courses (mainly arts, language, etc) prepare us for. They give people the knowledge and ability to interact and see things on a level BEYOND what only selective experience gives.

Hell, Ben. On the airplane I took when going to Boston in March I sat next to a person who spoke no English but only a little Spanish. I could read and write fine but I couldn’Äôt really communicate with her. It was experience unlike any other, but I was limited in that experience because of my FEAR of COLLEGE.

As much as colleges preach experience, and a well rounded individual they force applicants to conform to what YOU view as that individual. Who do you true value? The kid who struggles and gets a D? Or the kid who skates through on an A? Do you honestly think that kid with an A will do as well in MIT? The sad truth is no, because learning, despite what one might think, can not be GRADED.

Learning is something internal. It’Äôs an experience that goes beyond a class and connects a person with a world around them. It forces them to recognize the connections in the world and investigate them. Students do not TRULY learn until college because its the first time they’Äôre expected to learn. Sadly, but truly, it's why college is so much more difficult than high school, the admissions standards and student phobias have combined to create a world in which we INHIBIT rather than ENCOURAGE student growth.

Mistake leads to failure, but no one cares for the learning that occurs during that process. In fact, admissions makes kids FEAR failure rather than accept it. You create kids who superficially know very little. Who only learn what they think they CAN rather than what they think they CANT.

That is the true tragedy of the AP. Not that kids are taking them for the sake of looking good, but that kids are NOT taking SOME for the sake of looking good.

I’Äôm a class valedictorian at my school, not due to overcoming classes I feared, but due to overcoming classes I was confident over.

I’Äôve only TRULY challenged myself three times. Only a FEW teachers have REALLY taught me something about life and living. I didn’Äôt learn because it was easy, I learned because it was hard.

Hell, when I actually TAUGHT a class I learned SO MUCH MORE because it DIDN’ÄôT COUNT. Its amazing how narrowly focuses the students our society creates our, and it’Äôs a sad fact.

These applications should not be asking what students have received in high school. They should be asking what students have LEARNED in high school.

Not what happened to them, but what they discovered? How they TRULY learned to SEE the world from a new perspective.

You should ask the students that fail or get a D what they learned while doing it. You need to encourage learning, and as such you need to discourage a fear of mistakes. Getting a ’ÄúD’Äù does not mean you are dumb, it does not mean you didn’Äôt try. Sometimes a class just teaches someone so much more than they can handle.

That said. Please take this post for what it stands for on its own. I am not angry about not getting to MIT because that’Äôs in the past. I do not hold a grudge towards any of you; infact, you guys represent what admissions should be ’Äì personal.

PS Wow I wrote a lot