I understand both sides of this issue....personally I am not going to report my ethicity. Looking forward to hearing you speak at the info. session in VA!

Kathleen,

Thank you for your comment. I'm curious, why don't you want to report your ethnicity?

First off, I am about 1/8 or so Native American (verification is complicated--family records show 1/16+ for sure). Probably if others were in my position they would report their ethnicity (including Native American status). I, however, do not see it fair to report this information considering the facts that 1) I am not enrolled in a tribe and 2)I am not connected culturally...only by blood.
"So why then do we ask for this information? Simple - it helps us to understand who you are - in context."
So with respect to the quote above, I don't think that reporting my ethnicity would help you understand who I am in context---in fact it might distort your view of me.
Maybe that was the answer you were expecting or maybe not. :-)

Kathleen,

First off, let me congratulate you on your well thought out and well articulated points. What I wrote was a blanket statement designed to reach a wide audience. Ultimately, you must decide to do what's best for you. I am pleased to hear that you have decided to be honest... with yourself and the process. Part of applying to college requires you to look long and hard into the mirror for honest answers to tough questions. Your final sentence says it all...we really do want an honest view of you.

One of my mentors once told me the difference between being a responsible adult and a kid is your willingness to take the hard right over the easy wrong. I'm glad to see that you are well on your way to adulthood!

I'm not technically a minority, but my question does deal with race. Sorry if this question doesn't belong here.

I'm Turkish, and over the past few years (it may only be in Texas), tension towards the middle-eastern ethnicity has grown. While magazines and newspapers report that people are more and more comfortable with middle-easterners/Muslims, I still encounter a few people every month that make me want to roll my eyes (why is Ann Coulter's stuff so popular!?!).

I know that MIT is of the intellectual level that it is likely above any such prejudice, but can the same thing be said of Cambridge, Boston, and the surrounding areas? My friends along the east coast (admittedly a bit south of MA) tell me people are still distrustful after 9/11, and I think its a shame. I guess it makes sense considering the bulk of the tragedy was along the east, but that still doesn't make it right.

I guess what I'm asking you is whether or not the area is middle-eastern friendly.

Also: On the MIT application, I didn't quite know where to put myself, so I checked "Other" and wrote in "Middle-eastern." Is this okay? I know some schools consider it to be "white," but I felt I lost some identity when I checked that box.

- Timur

Good Afternoon Timur,

Thanks for your post. Having spent time at Ms. Coulter's Alma Mater (Cornell), I too am surprised at her success. As my granddaddy used to say, "Live and let live".

I am sorry to hear of your experiences and climate in Texas. I have found MIT to be a very accepting. Overall, academia tends to be a place that is more welcoming than that of the "real world". With that said, I can guarantee you that MIT is not perfect. Since we draw our staff, faculty and student body from all over the world, we experience the same problems as the rest of the world. The difference is, as a university and community; we have a very low tolerance for actions that pollute the learning environment.

Don't take my word for it. I suggest that you reach out to Muslim students/student groups for first-hand experiences. I suggest that you begin with the MIT Muslim Students Association http://web.mit.edu/mitmsa/www/.

I think that your selection on the application is quite appropriate. Although you may identify culturally as Middle Eastern or Muslim, it is much more helpful if maybe you could include your origin or nationality. E.g. Jordanian-American. I hope that this helps!

Mr. Nance,

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out as soon as I have free time. It's good to know that MIT is very good with handling these issues.

I've apparently run into a dilemma then. I, like I'm sure many other prospective 2010 students, have already submitted my application via the website. Is there any way to alter the information? It's clear in Part 2 of the application that I'm Turkish, but Part 1 still just reads "Middle-Eastern." I was shooting for an ethnicity rather than a nationality.

Err, to clarify, I was born here in the United States to two parents who immigrated from Turkey.

Thanks for your advice! I look forward to having you and the other admissions counselors reading my application this year. :)

- Timur

Timur,

RULE #1 of this BLOG...ALWAYS CALL ME BRYAN! MR. NANCE IS MY DAD ;-D

What are you doing up at 2:04 in the morning? I'll bet that you are watching CSPAN, aren't you? To change your ethnicity, send me an email with your complete name and date of birth and I'll forward it on the appropiate member of the admissions office. I can be reached at bgnance@mit.edu.

Cheers...get some sleep!

Bryan,

Sorry about that, it's just a habit. Bryan it is. Or Nance Effect... or Nancester... hehehe, Nancester. I like that.

I was studying (like a good prospective student!). I've had six tests (all in AP classes) the past two days, and it's been a huge drain. ><. I have no clue what I'm going to do when I start work, heh. Likely have a stroke. :P

E-mail incoming!

Wow, I am impressed. A whole blog devoted to helping people with ethnicity issues. This is exactly what I need! Ok, I was born in the United States, my white father is from New York. My mom however is from Iran, a native Middle Eastern looking woman. So on part 1 of my application (which I have already submitted), I selected "other" and put "Iranian American" as my ethnicity. Now that I think about it, Iran and America are countries, and they don't really tell you about the race, so maybe I should have put something different?

What ethnicity am I?

Hehe, he just said he believes your nationality is more helpful and gives them more insight on your life.

Bryan,

I'm having trouble connecting to my smtp/pop3 servers, so you may not get my e-mail for a few days.

And I already know what you're going to say, and in my defense:

1) I'm on CST, so it's actually only 3:00, and
2) It's because I kind of collapsed yesterday right after classes and thus woke up really early.

Ah, a highly irregular sleep schedule. I guess in the long run its just training for college. :P

Don't worry Timur, you're not alone. ;)

Okay, this might sound like a stupid question, but are Indians considered Minorities, in respect to applying to college? (I'm Indian, from Kashmir)

My father said no, because a lot of Indians apply to /go to college in the U.S.

Thanks. =)

Hello, I have a question about ethnicity also. Well, I am a South Korean with a citizenship there, but I have been studying in Canada for about 5 years or so now (non-citizen, on student visa). I am almost certain that I will be applying to colleges (mostly U.S. ones, including MIT of course ;)) in Canada. So should I put my nationality as South Korean on the application?

One more question, are there a lot of South Koreans going to MIT?

Thanks =)

MIT's website states that the only underrepresented minorities are people of "African-American, Native American, Mexican American and Puerto Rican descent."

As for South Koreans, I know a lot of them are active on the web community, but that may just be a vocal minority. Regardless, be warned that there is a quota for international students, so your chances are slim either way.

Best of luck to both of you,
- Timur

Ah, Kathleen, how I agree with you! I'm Chinese, and often that's all that strangers see about me. To kids I don't know that well in class, I'm just "That Smart Chinese Girl". There's so much about me that they don't know, like my crippling fear of bugs (ha ha), how I'm a sucker for chocolate ice cream, how I get weepy just watching Bambi, how I like long walks on the beach and...oops. Got carried away there for a second! Anyway, kudos to you!

And Bryan, at the same time, I do see why your stand makes sense too. People reading our applications do not get to spend a year with us, so the information we provide is all they have. Being Chinese is a big part of who I am, and to paraphrase Amy Tan (not me! ha), I have two sets of eyes - Chinese eyes, and American eyes, and sometimes they don't agree with each other. I think that sometimes ethnicity can offer strangers a glimpse into our lives.

So in the end, hm... should I put my ethnicity down? That remains yet to be decided.

Good Evening All!

I've been away form this thread for far too long! Time to catch-up.

As much as I dislike the word QUOTA, we do limit the number of international applicants (non US-citizens or permanent residents), to between six and eight percent of the entering class.

Anonymous: Students from Kasmir are not considered under represented minorities for purposes of the application process. By minorities we mean those student groups that (are US citizens or permanent residents) have very small representation within the undergraduate student body. In particular, Native Americans, African Americans and Latino students.

Vince: Ahn-Nyun-Ha-Seh-Yo! (That's about the extent of my Korean! Although I did live in Seoul for 2 years) We have a sizable Korean student population.

I don't know the #'s off the top of my head. When you apply in section 5 of Part 1 you will be asked your country of citizenship. There you should list the Republic of Korea.

Timur: As usual you ROCK! I can see that you are VERY familar with our website. Although, I suspect that you never sleep! What's up with that? Back away slowly form the AP homework and no one will get hurt!

Great thread! Keep em' coming!

Amy,

Your post is incredibly thoughtful! (Non Sequitur ’Ķ I love Amy Tan! I just finished The Hundred Secret Senses. What a great book! !) Anywho, you are who you are; please share that with us. Let me know about your two sets of eyes and the internal dialog/struggle that it causes. What you don’Äôt realize is how much of you comes across in just the little you shared in your post. When we read your essay we are looking for thoughtfulness; how much time you put into composition of the essay and a glimpse of your thought process. Students that are successful at MIT must constantly wrestle with difficult topics. They learn to hold seemingly contradictory and competing theories in their heads while they ’Äúthink a way out’Äù.

I’Äôm not saying that this should be a topic of your essay or that you should even declare your ethnicity on the application. An essay about ethnicity for the sake of ethnicity is BORING. But, when it describes who you are and helps the committee to get an understanding of the real you’ĶTHAT’ÄôS POWERFUL.

Anywhay, that’Äôs what I think.

Never fear Nancester, I got your back! Actually, I just have a really awesome memory.

I know the MIT application process is a holistic one, but my grades aren't too good. I've been working twenty hours a week since my freshmen year, and its cut into my grades. So I'm working extra hard my senior year to prove I am in fact quite capable of the grades MIT expects! I'm quite used to not sleeping; sleep has become a luxury here. :D.

I'm looking forward to having all of you on the AdCom read my app! :D.

- Timur

P.S.: The picture on Matt's blog shows your hair all short. That saddens me greatly. The one on your banner here shows it all long and awesome though. Being a longhair myself (can't cut it because of a promise I made), I must say I hope that Matt's picture is outdated. Long hair is just better. :D

Ah! Bryan, you have hit the mole with the hammer with the reference to the F. Scott Fitzgerald quote! It is like holding two opposing ideas in my head. Believe it or not, filling out college applications has made me do a lot of soul searching! Ha. Sometimes it feels like my head is going to explode...:)

Actually, I have to admit something...I am an imposter! Well, not really, but I do have an alias. My real name is Yiyang Lu, but I usually go by Amy. Oddly, however, I still don't have the heart to change my name officially. It feels like losing a part of myself, a part of my ancestors (however old-fashioned that might sound). Silly, isn't it, so much conflict over a name?

~Yiyang Lu

P.S. Have you read "Joy Luck Club" too? It's another very powerful book by Amy Tan - I highly recommend it if you haven't read it! Oh, and see you in Ann Arbor, Michigan! :)

I found it rather ironic that MIT, which has been known for its open-minded-ness and accepting attitude, has a quota on the percentage of international students.

quamobrem?

Minjae: I don't know whether or not this plays a big part of the decision to have a quota, but you have to realize that part of it is simply what can MIT afford. The federal government is reluctant to offer financial aid for people who are not citizens, and especially to those who aren't even permanent residents. Part of financial aid typically comes from the United States government. For international students, MIT has to foot the bill all by itself, as the U.S. government is only interested in helping U.S. students.

It's my bet that this is a part of MIT's "need-blind" policy combined with the "100% needs met" policy. Because it's need-blind, they have to assume that a certain portion of international students will require financial aid, and they have to realize that the school simply can't afford to pay for more than X international students.

You're probably thinking "Well, that's not exactly need-blind then, is it?" You have to realize that the converse of this is MIT becoming "need-aware" for international students, and that means that your chances will decrease simply because you're poor, not because you're an international student. This is the kind of discrimination MIT wants to avoid.

The world runs on money, and that's a very sad thing, but it's true. I'm sure that the percentage of international students likely reflects how much money MIT has available. It's not that MIT isn't "open-minded," it is. It's just that Dr. Hockfield is no Bill Gates, and MIT no Microsoft.

However, I'm no MIT employee, so I can't say that the above is accurate. It's just a series of logical deductions. Hopefully Bryan will come to shed more light on the answer.

- Timur

Timur, that was an amazing explanation - bravo!

Yay! I did well! I've been trying to help people out here and on CC, where I'm sure you've seen me (Olo), as I've asked you questions for applying 2010. :D.

Curing ignorance, one post at at time,
- Timur

Sorry I've been away so long.

Amy, The Joy Luck Club is one of my favorite book/movie combinations! I look forward to meeting you at the Michigan Theater in Ann Arbor!

Timur, THERE IS NO WAY I COULD HAVE SAID IT ANY BETTER!

Finally, let's clear this up once and for all: The picture of me taken for the Nance Effect is current. My hair is long. The picture of me on Matt's Blog was taken on a hot summer day when I had my hair pulled back in a pony tail. I'm a dread head for sure!

Sorry I've been away so long.

Amy, The Joy Luck Club is one of my favorite book/movie combinations! I look forward to meeting you at the Michigan Theater in Ann Arbor!

Timur, THERE IS NO WAY I COULD HAVE SAID IT ANY BETTER!

Finally, let's clear this up once and for all: The picture of me taken for the Nance Effect is current. My hair is long. The picture of me on Matt's Blog was taken on a hot summer day when I had my hair pulled back in a pony tail. I'm a dread head for sure!

I was wondering how MIT defines Hispanic/Latino. My father was born in Guyana (British Guiana at the time), so I am half Guyanese. Even though Guyana is geographically in South America (just East of Venezuela), it is an English-speaking nation that is culturally like a mix between India and Carribean nations, quite different from most South American nations. I don't speak Spanish, so would MIT consider me to be Hispanic or Latino?

Also, I am of mixed race: half White, half Asian(India). Are people of mixed race considered under-represented minorities?

Dear Mr. Nance,

I attended the session for "minority high school students and their parents" held on 9/28/05. I enjoyed the session and the information you provided to us.

I'm a parent and my son is currently a Junior @ Iona Prep. I would like for you to answer your top 10 questions and when is the college campus preview.

Regards,
Ivette

Hi people, I'm half Turkish and half Guyanese to, drop me an email, it's a lonely world out here...

It's a damn shame what American generalization makes diversity out to be.. First of all, there has been far too much confusion between race and color, diversity and nationality. I have noticed that American institutions/organizations try to seem so "diverse minded" or "culturally accepting".. damn, there is still so much discrimination between the lines, from the people who try and act otherwise, and especially from things like application forms. What the hell is it with the "minority" term? It definitely DOES NOT define itself as "the fewer population/herigate/nationality like it should be! Minority is a term of COLOR, and that's it! That's what has been shown here in the States. Applications are interested, not from where you come from and what background you have, but WHAT DAMN COLOR YOU ARE! you dont believe me, read them and analyze them yourselves. Political correctness has made tremendous efforts to minimize racism and discrimination, and I am happy for that. But without a doubt the American ignorance and lack of diversity-awareness will forever remain, even among those who are the "accepting" ones. You yourselves use these terms and incorrect labels! I have read the comments above to prove it! I heard one girl ask guy once where he was from..The guy replied "I'm from Mexico." then the girl said, "WOW! that's so crazy, cuz you could totally pass as white!" This girl had just finished graduate school in International Studies. All i have to say is, wow.

Marco,

I hear you, but what are you saying? Are we doing enough, too much or no where near enough to address diversity issues?

It is easy to claim the moral high ground...tell me where do you really stand?

You said, "I hear you"... haha.. that's it? Do you have no comment, opinion, or response whatsoever on anything I said above? That really shocks me because I saw that no one addressed these kinds of issues, these realities...

Everyone lives by this system, accepting this hidden discrimination that the government, just like many universities place on society. Did you read Timur's comment above? One of the first few commments is written by him and it says, "I am not technically a minority...I'm Turkish" By paraphrasing the statement, it says: I am not OF COLOR, I am Turkish... Well, ladies and gentlemen, in terms what minority SHOULD MEAN, Turkish people ARE a minority! But since the term is so grounded on COLOR, if Timur happens to be caucasian, then he is NOT a minority. So a person from Norway or Finland in the state of Montana (just about 0% Finnish or Norwegian population) would not be considered a minority according to this absurd evolution of the term minority. On applications: There is a section called ETHNICITY or ETHNIC BACKGROUND. Let me define Ethnicity for you! : A classification based on Hispanic culture and origin, regardless of race. AND a similar definition: The cultural practices, language, cuisine and traditions used to distinguish groups of persons’Äînot biological or physical differences. IT should be about nationality, culture, traditional practices, regardless if it is a white person from Kenya or a black person from Germany. THAT'S what makes up someone's ethnicity, NOT their appearance/complexion.

You asked, "Where do you really stand"? I dont really understand.. I am just a university student watching absurdity which doen't affect me much personally, but it does bother the hell out of me when people backing up/creating these labels and standards act as if they're so knowledgeable, accepting, and diverse-minded. They should be embarrassed. The U.S. has far too many resources and funds for any excuse not to improve this system. We're not in Sierra Leone, we're in a super power nation, yet we have one of the lowest international/geographical knowledges in the world. Europe makes fun of the U.S. for many obvious reasons.

On your second question about "...are we doing too little, too much...?" Sir, it's not about HOW MUCH. It's just about HOW. The way things are classified, the way cultures and foreigners are labeled. And it's not about funding this program here or reaching those people there...If the authority figures/creators/founders/Leaders themselves can't get it right, the HOW MUCH part is irrelevant. Now, I do not mean to say EVERYTHING IS WRONG here in this country when it comes to diversity. There ARE really helpful programs, like integrating internationals with local students and learning about one another. But the majority ISN'T educated about what diversity really means, about that there are over 20 Spanish speaking countries and they are all different, they aren't all just "mexicans or puerto ricans", that Europe isn't a country, that Amsterdam is not in Canada! All these have been real examples i have witnessed with American adults. The average American sees : black, native american, white, mexican, asian. That's all people are, that's all they'll ever be in thi system..

I haven't received a reply to my comment. Is no one checking this anymore?

So, what kind of site is this supposed to be?

I left a strong opinion and no one responds.. Whaat purpose does this site have??

You have great arguements Marco and what you said has answered alot of my questions about rather i should consider myself an ethnicity or not.

But you've crossed the line from "I have a good point and want to let people know" to pride and selfishness when you wait for a response. Personally pride will get you know where and won't help anyone else either.